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[Chromanoid]

I wonder why there are still so few "revenge games" and "revenge movies" about racism (at least in my cinematic sphere). I mean yeah, Wolfenstein 3D was literally the killer app for first person shooters, but it doesn't really challenge any racist or anti-semitist realities. Django Unchained still has the white guy who essentially provides Django with the ethical agency to kill the other white guys. Just imagine the outcry if Dr. Schultz would've also shown racist shit during the movie and then Django would've killed him too.

I think the lack of "revenge games" is a big sign that most game developers probably still cater to "a taste of an essentially racist society".

The atrocities in Africa are perfect for hyper-violent revenge games with really interesting villains. I don't think that such games would necessarily degrade these atrocities. I still wait for a game where the black male or female main character rages in revenge, slashing colonialists and slave hunters with various weapons while riding a lion... Just imagine as cover a depiction like "Saint Georg and the dragon" but instead of Georg on a horse a female warrior on a lion and a white male general as dragon. BTW since I am white and German would a game like this be problematic from an anti-racist standpoint? I mean I don't know all the tropes that are used to oppress and there were some times where I thought about "feminist" game ideas that featured some problematic tropes because I didn't know better...

[gimymblert]

Most minority fantasy is to get along and realize themselves, not to exert revenge, they are inherently careful about these depiction for being on the other end of it. In fact revenge follow more a white culture perspective on fighting oppression (nazi, british in america, french revolution, etc).

Also, part of the fear white culture push onto minority criticism, is about about how this narrative might apply to them, if racism is a real deal like nazism, wouldn't that mean we need to hunt and prosecute racist? Did I do a racist thing? Do my home be taken away from me? These guilt uphold the system, because admitting the system mean that their should be a just revenge against them, and that they should be hate themselves and live in shame, which paradoxically is not what most minorities tend to want.

Generally revenge story with minority tend to be made by white people (django is made by Tarentino, mafia 3 PR is handled by white PR dev), people who are critic of the culture at large and use minority to deal with the worst part of it, as a catharsis. Paradoxically they upheld a world view that is simply inverted and don't understand when minority criticize them for it, ie white culture always want to exercise domination and being denied this right (ie by projecting themselves into the role of minority) mean they are free to enact their fantasy of revolution.

That distinction make discussing these issue very difficult because they lead to differing interpretations of the same basis.

[Chromanoid]

Wow, thank you! Very insightful.

Generally revenge story with minority tend to be made by white people (django is made by Tarentino, mafia 3 PR is handled by white PR dev), people who are critic of the culture at large and use minority to deal with the worst part of it, as a catharsis. Paradoxically they upheld a world view that is simply inverted and don't understand when minority criticize them for it, ie white culture always want to exercise domination and being denied this right (ie by projecting themselves into the role of minority) mean they are free to enact their fantasy of revolution.

I think this probably describes my motivation as well, at least a big part of it .

Most minority fantasy is to get along and realize themselves, not to exert revenge, they are inherently careful about these depiction for being on the other end of it. In fact revenge follow more a white culture perspective on fighting oppression (nazi, british in america, french revolution, etc).

Also, part of the fear white culture push onto minority criticism, is about about how this narrative might apply to them, if racism is a real deal like nazism, wouldn't that mean we need to hunt and prosecute racist? Did I do a racist thing? Do my home be taken away from me? These guilt uphold the system, because admitting the system mean that their should be a just revenge against them, and that they should be hate themselves and live in shame, which paradoxically is not what most minorities tend to want.

I see. Do you think that this (in my eyes) very peaceful way of thinking might be an outcome of oppression? I mean more radical measures (global expropriations, reparations etc.) would lead to huge interruptions of the current system. I sometimes think that revenge and violence are pictured as brute and savage just to also paint severe reparations and other non-violent measures in a similar light.

[absolute8]

What Gymymblert said


The thing about revenge fantasies is the prospect of getting off on unbridled power. Black people, largely don't feel powerful. We feel radical in moments of awakening and widespread protest, but Murica (and various western powers abroad) has dropped some pretty mean hammers on that action since the sixties.

[gimymblert]

And when it's a country matter (south africa) they paint it as a race matter and not an invader problem lol.

But even me don't care much about revenge or even shaming, the main point of denunciation (which is why I brought up differing perspective) is for the minority to make the highlight matter disapear to live in peace, in the other end it is receive as shame and righteousness, different frame of interpretation. We are told we are equal, citizen, human and that society is meritocratic and that harming people is harmful, we just want that, screw the racist we don't care.

Also white culture tend to represent racism as either nagging that hurt the ego (which is ridicule, like absolut did) or downright hate violence (which absolut brought to contrast), reality is much more complex, it's about the whole web of dehumanization that lead one to another even without malicious intention. Denouncing representation in media is part of this realization, that the nagging justify first (that are all thugs anyway) then discredit (he deserved to be killed, cops did nothing wrong). But then it also upheld the lack of opportunity, which lad to the difficulty of living, leading to a social pressure to survive, which lead to desperation attempt to make end, but this isn't specific to minority but people cast as lesser on arbitrary measure.

I myself starting caring about the issue because I wanted to make entertainment, plain and simple, and that I met resistance for putting a black woman, which bring me down the rabbit hole because that normal thing to research subject you deal with.

[gimymblert]

Then there is the fact that the symbolic domination is their to upheld material domination by throwing red herring. I brought south africa, the main problem was that invader problem was made along race line, so when they expropriated invader's owner it translated into a symbolic race matter that backfire to support the symbolic domination. By consolidating material wealth (backed with external relation) along racial line with the confiscation of the related education, they effectively created a system where they couldn't be dislodged without massive problem, it's a problem of infrastructure (with human as part of the infrastructure). The problem is clearly asymmetric, bringing a revolution don't guarantee anything.

That's why most minority shifted their focus on slower and long term goal, ie education, building infrastructure (like supporting black owner in america) and mastering their narrative. So that the domination of the other become obsolete. Which also is under symbolic fire from white people, when you head about wanting preferring specific treatment, it's all about undermining the ability to strengthen the infrastructure that would make minority equal power with the symbolic dominant. That's why reducing black to thug is so efficient, especially if they start believing it themselves.

We don't need a revolution, we need to build symbolic and material infrastructure that support fairness.

Then maybe a revolution when the old system is obsolete 

[JWK5]

Another insidious factor of "white culture" is that it is systematically designed specifically to mask its own roots so as to hide just how deeply classist it really is and how that classism was tied to a form of white-against-white racism. For example:

By the 1890s, America’s burgeoning eugenics movement got hold of this idea and never let go. Most Americans are well aware of the horrors of Nazi eugenics—the early- and mid-nineteenth century idea that through proper breeding techniques and controlling the fertility of the “unfit,” one could produce a superior race. But few care to remember that Nazi eugenicists were taking their cues from American predecessors, who, beginning in the early decades of the twentieth century, had successfully lobbied for laws permitting states to involuntarily sterilize people considered unsuited for sexual reproduction.

While many American eugenicists railed about the threats posed by hordes of “dysgenic” immigrants (non-white, often, but also people from “undesirable” countries and bloodlines of all sorts), the core of eugenical science was based in field studies of poor rural whites. These studies of poor white families and kinship networks were carried out all over the East and Midwest, from upstate New York to Virginia to Ohio. Authors gave their subjects colorful names like the Jukes, the Kallikaks, the Happy Hickories, and the Smoky Pilgrims. They documented a high incidence of criminality and violence among the men and increased promiscuity and fecundity among the women.

White trash was a threat, in other words, because these people were both unfit for reproduction and spectacular at it.

It is no shocker that the media works hard to paint every murder by police as a problem only for black people when in fact no one race escapes violence at the hands of police. By convincing the white populace at large that they are all one despite being deeply divided by class it effectively renders them blind to the social mechanics that are destroying them along with people of color. It sells an American dream despite providing only an American nightmare for so many.

[absolute8]

Is it the games that are racist, or are game developers catering to the taste of an essentially racist society?

To me, catering to racism is a form of racism. Could you elaborate on the distinction you're making?

Catering to racist tastes, not racism itself.

Believe it or not, people unaffected by the negative aspects of racism tend to have blissfully ignorant positive effects from racism exercised against others.

Videogames featuring human characters with clear racial distinctions tend to play on real world societal roles typecast on individuals of a certain race. This issue presents itself when the game's central conflict comes into question.

For example, say you want to make a game where-in you fight terrorism. You want to market this game towards a western audience. What race are you going to make the character to illicit the strongest emotional response from players?

Many times developers don't consciously make the decision to put something racist in their game, they just play off the lazy excuses that our racist society has already prepared for itself to achieve maximum effect.

Sure, you could make a game fighting terrorism where-in a white, blonde woman is the main antagonist, but you know what would really get players in the US foaming at the mouth while smashing their trigger buttons on their controllers.

Is the racism then inherent and justifiable because of it's marketing success? Not at all.

It's just a symptom that a huge part of the narrative is missing. The narrative of the perceived terrorist is missing and only he can tell it.

[JWK5]

Many times developers don't consciously make the decision to put something racist in their game, they just play off the lazy excuses that our racist society has already prepared for itself to achieve maximum effect.

Which is why being able to dissect and discuss such works is important, it allows us to expose these lazy efforts that perpetuate racist stereotypes (for example) and help to weed them out of future works. As you weed racism and racist expressions out of popular media you help push back racism as a whole (by progressively taking it out of distribution).

[absolute8]

Which is why being able to dissect and discuss such works is important, it allows us to expose these lazy efforts that perpetuate racist stereotypes (for example) and help to weed them out of future works. As you weed racism and racist expressions out of popular media you help push back racism as a whole (by progressively taking it out of distribution).

Ummmmm, nah. I disagree with this process. Take too long. Too academic. Ultimately ineffective.

Policing media will only create a craving for even more racist material in games.

Want to really make a splash?

Introduce a little constructive chaos to start the discussion naturally while letting people work out all those nasty tensions which Ray Bradbury spoke so well of.

[Chromanoid]

@gimymblert: Mmmh, but isn't this only the perspective on making the reality a better non-racist place? Are violent video games that at least touch racist issues to some point usually counter-productive? Can't games explore this in an empowering way ?

Then maybe a revolution when the old system is obsolete  

I am still thinking about an "Anti-Lichtspeer" game - even if it might cater to my white radical revolution fantasies. How could such a game look like? Is a violent theme with a black African prince as main character and European imperialist-themed enemies really only a white "wannabe-edgy-in-the-politically-correct-way" game theme? Is racism still too real to deal with it in an over-the-top-violent ludic way? Would it simply lack fun for all those who experience racism, because it seems to be a white fantasy of dominance in disguise?

I totally agree that "honorable violence fantasies" are often presented as a thing for the "dominating group" of people (so in Europe usually white males). Is this the case because only the "dominating group" likes such fantasies or because the "dominating group" wants to frame "honorable violence" and the necessary ethical agency as something inherent to them?

I think the allure of being able to exert violence/power is fundamental, very human and naturally present in all human beings. When such fundamental fantasies of "honorable violence" (or at least the according ethical agency) are not part of a cultural identity I suspect oppression as a reason for the absence.

"Oppressed groups" are simply denied the ethical agency to exert "honorable violence". The "dominating group" denies the "oppressed groups" the authority to decide if a violent reaction is ethically valid. This of course manifests in various forms of oppression (e.g. abortion ban/waiting periods, all blacks are thugs...). I think this denial of ethical agency to decide about others (violence in its broadest sense) naturally bleeds into all areas of life and is a key enabler for oppression.

This is why I think humanity needs more violent media that depict "oppressed groups" exerting "honorable violence". I hope this way "dominating groups" are challenged to acknowledge the ethical agency of "oppressed groups" and "oppressed groups" recognize their ethical agency more sharply. I think it's not even necessary that the oppressed fight the oppressors, but there have to be some opponents that are ethically not "overly obvious". What do you think about this?

[s0]

Many times developers don't consciously make the decision to put something racist in their game, they just play off the lazy excuses that our racist society has already prepared for itself to achieve maximum effect.

i mean that's obvious. but im not sure why that makes it ok for people to perpetuate the (racist) status quo, even if only in a small way. everytime someone caters to the values of a racist society, it strengthens/stabilizes the racist society. if we deny the individual's contribution to society and culture, then i think positive change is never going to happen because no one feels responsible and everyone is comfortable with being part of the problem.

this actually ties back into the nazi discussion from earlier in this thread somewhat. most of the people living in nazi germany were not fanatical, hateful racists and anti-semites. they were "normal" people like you and me who were just playing along with the social climate of the time. but ultimately, those people were the ones who kept hitler in power until 1945, by perpetuating, through laziness and conformism,the social climate that allowed him to take power in the first place.

i think it's the same thing with racism, albeit in a more "abstract" and complex way. individual people can be part of the problem or part of the solution. i mean of course we could argue all day if not using racist tropes in a videogame is "being part of the solution" to racism, but i think we can agree that it's at least not contributing to the problem.

[absolute8]

Does marketability make it ok?

[gimymblert]

@chromanoid
Notice that I simply made an observation, there was no judgement, saying white culture enact a fantasy through minority is not holding any judgement, even though within a system value it can be interpreted that way. I just showed where people come from and why, it's a deconstruction.

So is the revenge story something frown at? I don't know, being black in america (whose identity is based on sharing and belonging identity with other groups) and being black in africa (where identity is mediated through nationality, family, etc ...) is not the same thing, as thus they have different fantasy, maybe the revenge story is more a cultural fit in africa than in america. That's because african aren't minority in africa, they have divide along different line.

Now I don't think minority don't have revenge fantasy, but they are more wary of what the impact is and how much closer it bring them to something they want to avoid, so the internal distressing tension tend to overshadow the fantasy, they are seen as short live local pulsion rather than founding identity and drive, and generally they find expression in self hatred, depression and self harm. Look at the reception and internal conflicts with the dallas shooter, he invoked directly the second amendment and shoot a policeman who was identified as a white supremacist, yet it cause more distress than catharsis for the community who was wary by the act and what it meant, and also distress by the obvious double standard of coverage of this cops. It's a complex sentiments we would rather avoid.

Then there is recuperation by white money, blaxpoitation and gangsta rap had seen an influx of "white" money who turn the rhetoric and visual toward "thug style" and dried up other style, whose visual depict a more social and political violence as denunciation. SO if we indulge in the fantasy, it might be returned against us and remove of all substance. Ie reappropriation will turn the agency onto this head by selecting only element that fit the dominant narrative to weaken the voice of the minorities. This also help mold the weaker mind of the community by bringing them faulty role model, perpetuating a cycle difficult to broke.

So yeah in some sense a mythical remote africa tend to be the automatic fantasy, but without actual african voice it became neocolonialist appropriation anyway

So yeah the issue is complex and that's why mostly white person tend to indulge in it, they have automatic immunity through privilege like the cop. But it's important then to introduce the voice of the people you take inspiration from, to give them agency, nuance and care are important.

[absolute8]

@Chromanoid
I could make the game you're describing, but it would make u very uncomfortable  

Of course Black people wouldn't play it or protect me from the backlash where I live . Gymym  is mad wise btw

[gimymblert]

@Chromanoid
I could make the game you're describing, but it would make u very uncomfortable 

Man! After playing last of us and seen the blatantly racist narrative, I had dreamed to make a horror game called white supremacy, it would be about a black woman cop who is in denial, beleiving that if she do everything right she will be okay, she has seen her brother being shot while a kids, it would be structured by days and each days you would start by doing your hair, which, depending what you do, would create reaction with people around you(of course the best strategy would be the straighten the hair chemically until it is destroyed, which mean you have to use wigs), each day passing and the situation become more and more surreal until madness broke loose and former ally became litterally mad, like that person who want to protect you and realize your skin is the problem so she try to bleach you with acid lol. I think it would be a very effective horror game  The cover would have in the foreground, framing the entire scene, a shadow of a person holding a gun, inside that frame would be the main character afraid, in cop uniform against a wall, and a tag behind her head covering some letter and saying #bl***livematter
 

[s0]

Does marketability make it ok?

if you think it does, sure why not. all about long term vs short term goals i guess

[s0]

@Chromanoid
I could make the game you're describing, but it would make u very uncomfortable 

Man! After playing last of us and seen the blatantly racist narrative, I had dreamed to make a horror game called white supremacy, it would be about a black woman cop who is in denial, beleiving that if she do everything right she will be okay, she has seen her brother being shot while a kids, it would be structured by days and each days you would start by doing your hair, which, depending what you do, would create reaction with people around you(of course the best strategy would be the straighten the hair chemically until it is destroyed, which mean you have to use wigs), each day passing and the situation become more and more surreal until madness broke loose and former ally became litterally mad, like that person who want to protect you and realize your skin is the problem so she try to bleach you with acid lol. I think it would be a very effective horror game  The cover would have in the foreground, framing the entire scene, a shadow of a person holding a gun, inside that frame would be the main character afraid, in cop uniform against a wall, and a tag behind her head covering some letter and saying #bl***livematter
 

gimmy pls make this gam

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

i'd buy it and play it

[gimymblert]

I don't have a team to do it justice, I mean no fund too
Also I have some game and some prototype to finish before (though they might prepare it)