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[Schoq]

similar thing with alien invasion themes which tap into xenophobia ("aliens are trying to replace our culture with theirs!").

shouldn't alien invasion be way more potent as an allegory of colonialism actually

[starsrift]

The truth of the matter is trying to find something we can feel good about exterminating says something pretty uncomfortable about us as a species. It gets even more uncomfortable when you look at how a rather large amount of action oriented games that actually have you playing as a Nazi-like entity (sometimes in everything but name) exterminating your way through whatever humanoid species that game has deemed unfit to live.

On one hand, it is just pixels, but on the other it is pixels representing living things. It's a pretty fucked up gray area made only worse by the fact that often the mechanics behind the game make it fun.

I really like what you said, JWK5.

It is discussions like these that almost make me feel bad that while playing GTA5 I ran down that hooker with an ambulance and parked it on her dead body and then rolled a grenade under it and the laughed because the airborne ambulance husk landed on a nearby pedestrian.

Almost.

It all depends if you're laughing at the absurdity of it, or in sadistic, vicarious glee.

[Rarykos]

dark skinned ennemies, ottoman mustache (supposedely be hipster mustache lol) .
it's easy to notice the racism especially since the game is german and main character pose.
naively said ,you have the white german kicking out turkish people.

edit: oups, should have checked deeper, game isn't german >.<

One of these games that can only be made in a country like Poland. We grow in a monocultural society 98% white and we don't see anything wrong with that in-game image. It's an idealized white guy killing differently coloured savages, we're not sensitive because we don't have any cultural/historical context for that. If they were Jews, then yeah, but other races, nah.

Lichtspeer's theme is the game equivalent of a racist joke you tell because you don't know it's racist.

Very interesting discussion on violence and ethics, good job guys!  

[starsrift]

lol i think im getting too worked up about this. nazism as a topic is very "close" to me due to my family history and i find that it's often talked about in ways that miss the point and are unhelpful. one of the main problems being that nazism is often depicted as equivalent to US capitalism and soviet communism when it's infinitely worse than both.

There are a lot of comforting things I want to say at this juncture which could possibly seem opposed to your ideal as helpful or 'unhelpful'.

I do think it's reasonable to point out that sadists like Mengele are outliers, not a standard. Asking for someone to fight for their country, conscription or no, is not an implicit induction into evil.

I think a lot of times that Germans (and Austrians) take on this generational moral debt far too seriously. There is only so much a person can answer for, ancestrally. And one has to keep in mind, that the first victims of the Nazi regime, were the German people. I would appreciate you elaborating on this when you feel comfortable, CA.

[s0]

thanks for the effort 

anyway,

I do think it's reasonable to point out that sadists like Mengele are outliers, not a standard. Asking for someone to fight for their country, conscription or no, is not an implicit induction into evil.

in a way yes but someone like mengele could thrive in 3rd reich because the system (upheld by the general public) supported and encouraged him. it's not like mengele's superiors weren't aware of his "experiments". mengele wasn't the only sadistic nazi doctor either, you should read up on what the nazis did with mentally ill and disabled people in clinics and asylums, if you can stomach it.

also sadistic treatment of "undesirables" was very widespread and systematic in the 3rd reich and not at all limited to concentration camps (which would have been bad enough). people were encouraged to spy on their neighbours and report "suspicious" activity to the gestapo, often with (literally) fatal consequences for the people being spied on.

plus, it's been shown that most nazi criminals, even concentration camp wardens, were not sociopaths or sadists but were in fact perfectly average people who acted in ways most of us would consider barbaric or "inhuman" because they felt justified and validated by an authority. im not sure what the study is but it exists somewhere. the famous milgram experiment was based on that as well.

I think a lot of times that Germans (and Austrians) take on this generational moral debt far too seriously. There is only so much a person can answer for, ancestrally. And one has to keep in mind, that the first victims of the Nazi regime, were the German people. I would appreciate you elaborating on this when you feel comfortable, CA.

thanks but i don't feel personally guilty lol

[Canned Turkey]

main character pose.

https://www.google.com/search?q=throwing+a+spear&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjc8rSq5aPPAhUTzmMKHdO9DlYQ_AUICCgB

How is proper throwing technique racist.

This is the biggest example, but overall I really think people are seeing a false positive here.
There is racism in games like call of duty that is just "you are american, go kill brown people", but overall in the video game industry there isn't racism racism.
This reminds me of cuphead when everyone was saying the imagery in the game is racist because the art is based off of a time period where the physical features of any character in a ""lower"" racial group (in the 1910s-30s) were grossly disproportionate.
But the game didn't feature these kinds of character, it borrows from the design but it doesn't use it to the effect of racism.
Raising your arm straight in the air at a slight angle with a closed fist or a flat hand is not racist.
The Nazi salute is deeply ingrained in real life white supremacy.
But a character in a game raising his hand is not white supremacy in any way. He's raising his hand. I guess that makes this guy a white supremacist.


With this line of reasoning, the red faction games are communist and support an ideology that is historically tied with white supremacy, classism, famine, dehumanization, unjustly fought wars, genocide, and other atrocities.


And this game supports the systematic genocide of an entire race deemed "unfit to co-exist with the higher class"


Here's a picture of a WHITE MALE beating and maiming an unarmed dark skinned citizen.


Here is an example of how the game industry supports cultural appropriation and white supremacy.


A symbol or position or image or anything, is not racist when it slightly resembles something that actually exists. Light skin and dark skin people are actually alive and real and people. Purple troll monsters aren't real, and have never been real, and have never faced racism or hate or lynching or anything that actually marginalized groups have faced. And they never were oppressed by a magic sky german with a laser spear.

Just because something vaguely represents one example of racism doesn't make it racism.
Actual racism is racism, and you'd be hard pressed to find anything like that in video games besides anecdotal examples, and  the gross nationalistic undertones in "historical" war shooters, which still only verges on racism, as most of the games are so far removed from actual history that they blur the line on what people group they actually are representing as unsavory.
"Not american" isn't an ethnicity, it's just an excuse for the game to be easy to digest.
I am surprised to see me being in the minority position when I say that.

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

main character pose.

https://www.google.com/search?q=throwing+a+spear&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjc8rSq5aPPAhUTzmMKHdO9DlYQ_AUICCgB

How is proper throwing technique racist.

can't you notice that most of their hand is either clenched or fingers not as tense as in the heil salute?

the combinaison worsen the thing here. ancient germanic future.... white skinned character with the athletic pose, which makes him easier to associate to the "aryan thing".

[s0]

who said anything about a salute? i am confuse

[Canned Turkey]

Although most people who are throwing a spear aren't so stiff and focused enough to straighten their body, the character in the game is very obviously demonstrating the forward arm balance that is a staple of an easy to recognize "spear throwing stance number 1.jpg" although it is poorly rendered.
My point exactly is that when it's poorly rendered (whether visually or thematically) and resembles something that is connected to racism, that doesn't make it racism.
He's throwing a spear with a stiff stance, not hailing Hitler.
Just because they look similar doesn't make it the same thing.

who said anything about a salute? i am confuse

ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ implied that the pose was evidence for the supposed white supremacy in this game.

[Schoq]

next you'll argue lord of the rings isn't racist

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

if you separate all context racism do not exist in most case then.

[Canned Turkey]

Next you'll argue that my game is racist because there is no cultural diversity, they're all the same color, green supremacist.

Lichtspeer has no context in the real world.
So?

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

lichtspeer , light spear, can be linked to the holy lance, lance of longinus or spear of destiny, which has a story linked with the nazis at some point.

I was just pointing out all the bad design element choices in this game.

[s0]

no ones saying the devs are raging fascists lol. just that the game uses an unfortunate combination of cultural symbols linked with white supremacism.

[Schoq]

it's actually very hard to imagine this imagery and symbolism wasn't specifically crafted to resonate with people identifying with CERTAIN MOVEMENTS currently gaining traction not least in the home country of the devs

or maybe they're simply completely blind to the implications who knows

[Canned Turkey]

no ones saying the devs are raging fascists lol. just that the game uses an unfortunate combination of cultural symbols linked with white supremacism.

Thank you for some sanity here.

[s0]

or maybe they're simply completely blind to the implications who knows

a sheltered white upbringing can do that to you lol

trust me i know firsthand

[Dacke]

it's pretty widespread pop culture symbolism, doesn't make it any better

[gimymblert]

People who have never open "black history month wiki" wouldn't see the connection anyway, but then there is a direct legacy that is traceable.

Why do you think evil orc are within tribal images? People things are unrelated and only help propagate stuff they are completely oblivious from, and yo can still be black and ignorant. I know I was lol, until very recently in my life in fact, I thought it was all fantasy ... But then I stopped being ignorant, almost by accident, now I can only facepalm, because it's surely not trivial ...

[JWK5]

The more you learn the more you realize you don't know, that is the double-edged sword when it comes to expanding your world view. When each painful revelation connects to more threads in a web of painful revelations it is going to make us afraid to look and accept them. It is the thing that is often left out of the racial, gender, etc. discussions: when you realize that everything you've been led to believe about the world, about your entertainment and social ties, about yourself, etc. is a lie that revelation is painful. Not even metaphorically, I mean literally it triggers a pain response in the brain. It dredges up all kinds of horrible feelings of alienation and rejection. Some people will go through the motions and work their way through that pain but others will try to escape it by denying it and fighting it. I think modern day -isms are largely driven by this process, it is easier to give into hateful denial than accept painful truth.

I've learned a lot, but I am still ignorant as fuck. Every time I realize something I enjoy, something I grew up with, something I believe in, something I trust, etc. is saturated in exploitation, prejudice, etc. it is a complete mindfuck that leaves me reeling. I'd have thought experiencing it so many times now that I'd have a lot better handle on those denial-impulses but nope, they still kick in almost every time. The brain loves a good habit (habits are efficient shortcuts) and denial is a persistent one. I say and think ignorant shit, and I will probably continue to for a long time still (probably until death), but as painful and embarrassing as the feedback can be at times it is informative. It does teach (regardless if it is reasonable, constructive, or not). You can't really learn from what stays safely protected in your head or shielded the moment it leaves your mouth. It has to be put on the chopping block, communicated and dissected.

I had to stop responding to Silbereisen and Dacke earlier in this thread because I could feel the urge to argue my point was stronger than my belief in it, I had to step back for a while and rethink what I was saying (before I would even let myself say anything else). It is easy to get stubbornly stuck on something and lose yourself and everyone else around you in it while trying to shut out all dissent. I still don't entirely agree with Silbereisen, for example, but I've at least stopped myself long enough to really let what he was saying sink in. I see where he is coming from, and I can see the sense in what he is saying (and with some of it I do agree).




All that said, it is not bad thing to take a game like Lichtspeer and open it up to deeper dissection. Maybe some of us are overreacting maybe some of us are not. Maybe some of us are being too excusing or too sympathetic, maybe we are not. Whatever the case may be is fine so long as you look at the discussion that plays out and really look at what it's brought to the surface for all participants to see.

My first look at the game I didn't see a whole lot wrong with it but at this point in the discussion I can see a lot more that I didn't initially see that looks pretty bad (especially in regards to the faces used in the enemy designs). I don't think it necessarily means the devs are overtly and intentionally racist or something (I don't know of or their work enough to really know one way or the other) but at least for me it does mean there are things I could play closer attention to in my own works to better avoid creating things that are unintentionally terrible. I best learn those things through discussions like this, but the only way I can learn from these discussions is to disarm my own defenses enough to let it all sink in.

[/rambling]