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[Chromanoid]

I think it's really interesting how "pseudo-fascism", "German culture, lore and language" are used to make content appear edgy. One can see that for example in anime (e.g. Attack on titan), music (e.g. Rammstein or Laibach) and video games (e.g. Battlefield: Heroes). "Pseudo-fascism" is also very prevalent in fetish sub-cultures which makes it even more exploitable in pop culture. I think at least this exploitation is very obvious in Lichtspeer.

Nationalism and strong ideals of "racial identity" are to my knowledge intertwined with practically the whole cultural heritage of humankind. These ideas found their horrible pinnacle in the Third Reich, but they permeate practically all cultures. I think Lichtspeer mirrors a pop-cultural "Wagner-esque" idea of "Siegfried" heroism (which btw has some spear wielding in it). This of course includes themes of "purity" vs. the "tainted other". I think this really works well from a stylistic point of view. From an ethical standpoint I think Lichtspeer is more exploitation of our racist history than racism itself.

[Dacke]

I had to stop responding to Silbereisen and Dacke earlier in this thread

I very likely overstated my belief in my point too, it's a bad habit of mine 

[joseph ¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

videogame consoles need to come with mandatory intro to lit crit in the manuals.

[s0]

@Chromanoid: thanks for the alternate perspective haha. like i said, i tend to be very "touchy" on this subject due to my family history (grandmother was a resistance fighter, grandpa lost his leg in the war). there's also a huge difference in how germany and austria have dealt with their nazi past respectively. you guys pretended like nothing had happened until the late 60s, after which there was a lot of effort to document and come to terms with nazi crimes. austria otoh declared itself "hitler's first victim" and the denial lasted until the 80s.

denazification was very spotty and lots of people with successful nazi careers ended up in high ranking positions in the newly founded republic. im sure you've heard of president waldheim, but that's just the tip of the iceberg.
nazism in general is more tolerated here. you guys have your NPD and AFD, but we've had a party with known neo nazi ties in power from 2000-2005 that is still currently going strong.

so that's why i'm a bit more "on edge" about these issues. i tend to be very critical of anything "völkisch".

[quantumpotato]

Great discussion Tigsourcers.

Errant Signal arguing Hotline Miami uses a lack of narrative explanation & grotesque actions (hyperviolence instead of racism, in this case) to say "gameplay is all that matters"; more particularly that the game consumer ignores or embraces any bad ethics in game as long as the gameplay is fun (see call of duty).





Another approach is to embrace the theme as part of the mechanics. Brenda Braithwaite's "Train Game" in her "The Mechanic is the Message" series - mechanics about transportion of concentration camp prisoners. Some players played without realizing what it was modeling ("move your people tokens into the rectangle"). She refuses to sell copies.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/12/13/brenda-brathwaite-holocaust-game-designer.html

I'm not an expert on Jewish history, but in the English American Bibles I've read, God orders the Jews to kill neighboring tribes. But I don't think Lichtspear's orders to slaughter is mimicking that specifically, but the deeper history of racial identity & military theocracies in human history.

Speaking of.. humans have been at war with each other for what.. forever? So it's no surprise that we make artifacts exemplifying our cultural ideals of power & prestige.

[JWK5]

I had to stop responding to Silbereisen and Dacke earlier in this thread

I very likely overstated my belief in my point too, it's a bad habit of mine 

No worries, I just know myself enough to know that sometimes I can get bullheaded and don't want to let something go. I am getting a little better at recognizing the underlying feelings and realizing when I am heading in that direction and if I feel that I am I take a break until it subsides. So it is nothing you or Silbereisen did, I think you both stated your points in a reasonable manner, I just want to make sure that I am discussing with you in a respectful and reasonable manner and not just catering to my ego or being defensive or something. For me, it's still a learning process and something I am trying to get better at, so bear with me. 

[s0]

that's cool. i try to do something like that myself. before i get into an Internet Argument i ask myself "do i actually care about what's being discussed or do i just want to be 'right'?", and if the answer is the latter i let it go. i don't always manage to abide by that rule, but im trying anyway.

[starsrift]

Errant Signal arguing Hotline Miami uses a lack of narrative explanation & grotesque actions (hyperviolence instead of racism, in this case) to say "gameplay is all that matters"; more particularly that the game consumer ignores or embraces any bad ethics in game as long as the gameplay is fun (see call of duty).

I think that is probably true in result but shouldn't be a guiding element for design.
I wonder how much of that is related to a certain assignment of trust and moral agency to the developers, in much the same way as the famous Milgram experiments.

[JWK5]

Hotline Miami is also fairly detached from reality, so it might not be that "gameplay is all that matters" it might just be that the game is cartoonish enough for the gore and whatnot to be seen as benign.

I've heard that laughter is an informative response to "benign violation", that we laugh basically to let each other know that despite what is being perceived there is no real threat intended. For example, being tickled or seeing a movie where the character gets hit on the head and wobbles about comically. The tickling is a violation of personal boundary but not necessarily threatening (depending on the tickler I guess) and we know we don't need to rush out and give the guy hit on the head medical attention, it is a joke.

So looking at a lot of gory games, especially with the mayhem in Grand Theft Auto which often makes me amused and gets me laughing, it could just be that it is benign so we are okay with it. I think with this Lichtspeer game, a lot of what it is depicting is not benign to many of us given its social context, even if it may or may not have been benign to the creator.

that's cool. i try to do something like that myself. before i get into an Internet Argument i ask myself "do i actually care about what's being discussed or do i just want to be 'right'?", and if the answer is the latter i let it go. i don't always manage to abide by that rule, but im trying anyway.

It is hard sometimes because indignation has a funny way of convincing me I am "right" and that I need to reiterate my point, sometimes over and over, and I have to stop myself and just go "I've said all I can say on the matter, it's time to give it a break." When I find myself ensnared in in that vicious circle I can get so worked up that I am not even really reading the whole of what others are saying I am just picking apart pieces to attack and that is really unfair and disrespectful to the people I am discussing with. Like you said though, I don't always succeed at stopping myself but I am trying anyways.

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

Hotline Miami is also fairly detached from reality, so it might not be that "gameplay is all that matters" it might just be that the game is cartoonish enough for the gore and whatnot to be seen as benign.

personally I found hotline miami way more violent than a lot of other game with realistic violence graphics.

[Chromanoid]

so that's why i'm a bit more "on edge" about these issues. i tend to be very critical of anything "völkisch".

I think that's a good thing. I think many people underestimate how much bellicism, fascism, antisemitism and racism were "common sense" in the beginning of the 20th century. I agree with the Anti-German standpoint that especially German culture was more disposed to create something like the Holocaust than other cultures. Still in my opinion it's one of the most deflecting educational failures of our time that racist thoughts tend to get compared with Nazism and Germany. The constant comparison to the pinnacle of violent racism in European history makes "normal" everyday racism appear tame and makes it possible that it often can be downplayed in a "boys will be boys" manner.

Regarding family history I can provide some rather "unflattering" examples of the hubris in those times. Some relatives of my "blue-blooded" grandmother stayed at their manors in Eastern Europe to literally defend their noble privilege and possession from the Soviet forces in some kind of martyr-like way... The father and brothers of my grandfather were so eager to help to win this "righteous war", that they traveled from their farm in Africa to Germany to fight for their fatherland - I think three of four died in the battlefield. Ironically as a kid I always thought that my grandfather's family stayed in Africa to stay away from Hitler and Nazi Germany...

@Violence vs. Racism:
I think many violent video games can provide a playful, ludic way to deal with the existential threat of violence and power to our existence. I think most games that feature extreme violence still allow us to critically think about violence. Nobody wants to become the "ultra kill" of somebody else. Games often present a world where violence is practically the only interaction possible. In these games the player is usually the ultimate subject, the ultimate actor, a god of violence. In multiplayer modes this state is already challenged and just one change of perspective debunks the whole game as a silly selfish fantasy of omnipotence. I think this realization directly leads to the very nature of real violence.

Racism or sexism are much more subtle and much more asymmetrical in their effects. Physical violence is easy to perceive as a threat even when you apply it to others. In contrast racism and sexism as forms of collective psychological violence turn somebody else's identity against them. In this case a lack of empathy becomes an insuperable hurdle.

[absolute8]

Your description of Lichtspeer definitely sounded worse than their actual product. That game look hilarious as fuck. If anything, it's making a bit of fun of the "pure white" hero archetype. Furthermore, there are walrus people. Walrus people....

But I digress, do you know any people who have been effected by actual racism? Because this is a huge stretch.

Edit:

Read a bit more of this thread. No offense, but most of you guys don't know shit about racism lol.

[Superb Joe]

resident evil 5 is so good

[gimymblert]

Edit:

Read a bit more of this thread. No offense, but most of you guys don't know shit about racism lol.

Tell me more about my experience bro

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

Read a bit more of this thread. No offense, but most of you guys don't know shit about racism lol.

yeah sure, as long it doesn't concern your "race" there's no racism right? lol

[gimymblert]

I think absolout is black too, he made that thread looking for other black don't he?

[Superb Joe]

[heavily accented german such that i sound like werner herzog] Hello fellow gamersss, vhere vould you recommend I go to meet my fellow blacksss on line

[absolute8]

yeah sure, as long it doesn't concern your "race" there's no racism right? lol

Racism isn't a cute, speculative or figurative idea, it is an abrupt disruption in dignity and destiny on the basis of superficial physical traits and appearances.

Thinking you're racist because your neighbor's son looks a bit like Curious George to you is not racist. It's silly, but not racist.

The issue of this discussion is a lack of experience. How many people here have experienced actual racism? I live in Chicago. We're drenched in it.

I think the real question is not whether games are racist, but rather, are games catering to an essentially racist society?

[gimymblert]

There you got it! though you don't need to redefine the dictionary, violent act of racism and flattering symbol of racism is still racism. They both need to be dealt with because the latter enable the former. There is nothing naive with questioning that. If you stop the enabler you weaken the act.

Hi I have experience racism too tell me more.

[Superb Joe]

today i said rude words to a neo nazi wearing a neo nazi t shirt in public until he trundled away as fast as his fat little legs could carry him