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[Superb Joe]

i just wanted to let you know that for every insane internecine conflict you on line guys have about whether your adult toys are performing adequately in the role of moral arbiter that you've thrust them into because of absentee parents that there are actual nazis out side not in the wolfiestein game and people have to deal with them

[absolute8]

[heavily accented german such that i sound like werner herzog] Hello fellow gamersss, vhere vould you recommend I go to meet my fellow blacksss on line

You got me. My attempts to start a black Nazi party was utterly foiled since there is basically only one other black guy here.

The Nationalist People's Party o'er Yonder, or NAPPY, will never see the light of day.

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

yeah sure, as long it doesn't concern your "race" there's no racism right? lol

Racism isn't a cute, speculative or figurative idea, it is an abrupt disruption in dignity and destiny on the basis of superficial physical traits and appearances.

Thinking you're racist because your neighbor's son looks a bit like Curious George to you is not racist. It's silly, but not racist.

The issue of this discussion is a lack of experience. How many people here have experienced actual racism? I live in Chicago. We're drenched in it.

I think the real question is not whether games are racist, but rather, are games catering to an essentially racist society?

the screenshot i posted in this topic, pointed out one thing, a certain racism present in europe. Here the case was extremely unfortunate where you have a white person killing people with traits that are linked to the turkish community ,cf something you probably don't know shit about if you never lived in europe especially near germany.

so all you can see here is just silly things, and you probably won't react the same way if the ennemies were monkey humans with an african background, i'm making this example because in the screenshot, you have pyramide (arab background) ottman mustache, and you have the typical unibrowed monster , which is a racist stereotype of turkish people.

so all i can i see is saying, "as long you don't live the racism linked to black lives matter, because it's the hot topic, you don't know shit about racism", there's a lot of different type of racism around the world.
USA USA USA!

and you're not the only one to experience racism .

[JWK5]

Your description of Lichtspeer definitely sounded worse than their actual product. That game look hilarious as fuck. If anything, it's making a bit of fun of the "pure white" hero archetype. Furthermore, there are walrus people. Walrus people....

But I digress, do you know any people who have been effected by actual racism? Because this is a huge stretch.

Edit:

Read a bit more of this thread. No offense, but most of you guys don't know shit about racism lol.

Sometimes a racist joke can be funny because of its absurdity or irony, but it is still racist. The fact that it is funny doesn't change that.

Mechanically, this game could be fun. The art could be well done and adequately silly. The music and overall gameplay could be great. None of that erases the fact that the game has some pretty racist iconography and implications. It doesn't necessarily mean the creator by extension is racist, maybe he or she didn't see any harm in what they were portraying and didn't understand the significance of it. I get that the game might be funny or whatever but take a closer look at some of the faces of the enemies, for example. There are definitely racist undertones.

I look back at a lot of the characters and such I've created in the past, a lot of which were following the comic book tendency to create absurdly big breasted skinny women and huge muscled men, and I cringe. Not necessarily because the ideas were absolutely terrible but because I know better now, I understand the significance and implications of what I had created. Sometimes you just don't see the harm in something because you've never really been put in a position that allows you to see it for what it really is.

That is why discussions like these are important, you have an opportunity to realize something you didn't see or understand fully before. You have an opportunity to move one step forward. You say we don't understand shit about racism but are you absolutely sure that is the case or do you think maybe there is something people here are seeing that you are not?

[MeshGearFox]

This seems like it's ironically racist, like less white supremacist and more lol white supremacist violence fantasies are dumb. i mean just looking at the video it's pty tongue in cheekeek.

not actually rSo yeah it's pretty obviouslyacist to me at least, but that's
not to sssay that themes
gamers are also notoriously not very culturally... aware/have a perspective of the world that doesn't involve things that aren't games, so it's n

[FK in the Coffee]

racism

[FK in the Coffee]

is bad

[absolute8]

yeah sure, as long it doesn't concern your "race" there's no racism right? lol

Racism isn't a cute, speculative or figurative idea, it is an abrupt disruption in dignity and destiny on the basis of superficial physical traits and appearances.

Thinking you're racist because your neighbor's son looks a bit like Curious George to you is not racist. It's silly, but not racist.

The issue of this discussion is a lack of experience. How many people here have experienced actual racism? I live in Chicago. We're drenched in it.

I think the real question is not whether games are racist, but rather, are games catering to an essentially racist society?

the screenshot i posted in this topic, pointed out one thing, a certain racism present in europe. Here the case was extremely unfortunate where you have a white person killing people with traits that are linked to the turkish community ,cf something you probably don't know shit about if you never lived in europe especially near germany.

so all you can see here is just silly things, and you probably won't react the same way if the ennemies were monkey humans with an african background, i'm making this example because in the screenshot, you have pyramide (arab background) ottman mustache, and you have the typical unibrowed monster , which is a racist stereotype of turkish people.

so all i can i see is saying, "as long you don't live the racism linked to black lives matter, because it's the hot topic, you don't know shit about racism", there's a lot of different type of racism around the world.
USA USA USA!

and you're not the only one to experience racism .

First, I said most not all of you guys don't know shit about racism, which includes that some f you do know something about racism.

Second, I can see that the butthurt is strong in you. This could have been educational and all, but since you want to be all condescending and all "whoa is me and my oppressed uni-brow, moustache combo", don't expect any empathy from me.

Thirdly, if you're so offended by Lichtspeer, what do you even intend to do about it?

Nothing.

Update:

Furthermore, I hope you have dreams of being speared by millions of cell-shaded arian men in white pajamas until you go crazy and pry your eyes out with a dull toothbrush. Perhaps then you will feel the euphoria of having finally won the victim Olympics.

I hear there are cash prizes...and cake.

Update Update:

Haha...I got really angry because of that "hot topic /black lives matter" comment.

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

you're the one who came up the "you don't know shit about racism" lol

what's your point here? it's like people don't know nothing's gonna change, racism is part of humanity.
And you're spreading that hate with your hey i know much better than yo all because i'm a black oppressed by racism.

[absolute8]

you're the one who came up the "you don't know shit about racism" lol

what's your point here? it's like people don't know nothing's gonna change, racism is part of humanity.
And you're spreading that hate with your hey i know much better than yo all because i'm a black oppressed by racism.

Sure I'm black, but being black isn't my angle. I could write a master class on racism because I've actually studied and lived this. It's my everyday. It gets pretty deep.

 Perhaps my approach to the discussion was a bit lackadaisical, but that is due to a bit of presumption on my part. There are a lot of very clueless commentaries in this posts which caused me not to consider perhaps there are some abroad who share a like experience.

Furthermore, white supremacy is kind of the global basis for any discussion of racism. A basis where-in black is almost always the default subject of oppression.  

Honestly, when considering the Euro-centric perspective of racism I thought of the Armenians and Irish as a good reference point.

Anyway...truce?

Update:

Racism is NOT part of humanity. It is our current reality because of constant cultural and institutional reinforcement.

[Capntastic]

As for the "well why even argue, what are you gonna do about it??" line of thought:  What's up, this is a forum of artists and writers and game makin' people.  The idea that someone might learn a thing or two from a discussion and incorporate it into their work for the rest of their lives isn't impossible.  Not every conversation about ethics needs to lead to pitchfork mobs and kicking down doors.

[MeshGearFox]

罪罪罪
罪罪罪
罪罪罪

[absolute8]

Sometimes a racist joke can be funny because of its absurdity or irony, but it is still racist. The fact that it is funny doesn't change that.

My point was not that racist imagery is validated by comedy. I meant to state that many superficial assertions of racism are somewhat pretentious as a result of ignorance concerning the actual definition and application of racism.

It is not the visual example of a boy looking like curious George that was silly, but the over sensitivity of the individual feeling guilty for having such shallow insecurity concerning race. Does recognizing the visual similarity between a little boy and a cartoon monkey mean you have internalized some racist rhetoric or visuals? Maybe.

[Bonus: Ask yourself, when I mentioned a child with a similar appearance to Curious George, did you automatically visualize a black child? If so, why is that?]

Anyway, my point is, true racism is about power and power relies on clear intent, not some superficial insecurities and nitpicking details.

Racism would be comparing a boy to a monkey for the express purpose of dehumanization and degradation of his humanity and dignity.

Mechanically, this game could be fun. The art could be well done and adequately silly. The music and overall gameplay could be great. None of that erases the fact that the game has some pretty racist iconography and implications. It doesn't necessarily mean the creator by extension is racist, maybe he or she didn't see any harm in what they were portraying and didn't understand the significance of it. I get that the game might be funny or whatever but take a closer look at some of the faces of the enemies, for example. There are definitely racist undertones.

I see racial caricatures mixed with pop stereotypes of an non-racial origin in this game. There are some allusions to some lazy stereotypes, but where is the racism? Is it racist against Vikings or Turks? Why? Simply because they are depicted?  Honestly, that's not good enough unless the game is simultaneously reinforcing an actual racist rhetoric that effects the way Nordic and Turkish people are treated in real life.

That is why discussions like these are important, you have an opportunity to realize something you didn't see or understand fully before. You have an opportunity to move one step forward. You say we don't understand shit about racism but are you absolutely sure that is the case or do you think maybe there is something people here are seeing that you are not?

I maintain my stance. Someone has to play devil's advocate and I don't think the game is racist.

[Capntastic]

Someone has to play devil's advocate

Nah

[starsrift]

I felt compelled to reply after being addressed. But I have nothing new to say.

I don't really want to talk about how awful racism is in gaming, or how good/bad Lichthund may be. Pollyanna that I am, I'd like to believe they came to this final product via a series of quite innocent artistic decisions, and ended up with something perhaps not quite what they were intending.
If, on the other hand, they're racist jerks unashamedly producing a title to glorify racism, well, that's their artistic right, fuck them very much. But I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt. Either way, I don't think that's a productive conversation to have.

As for the "well why even argue, what are you gonna do about it??" line of thought:  What's up, this is a forum of artists and writers and game makin' people.  The idea that someone might learn a thing or two from a discussion and incorporate it into their work for the rest of their lives isn't impossible.  Not every conversation about ethics needs to lead to pitchfork mobs and kicking down doors.

I also really liked this question:

I think the real question is, [...] are games catering to an essentially racist society?

Are we creating games that cater to an essentially racist society? Is Lichthund? (I attempt to be rhetorical.)
We are not consumers, we are creators. We have more agency than the choice of what to encourage via opinion and financial contribution.

[Dacke]

i just wanted to let you know that for every insane internecine conflict you on line guys have about whether your adult toys are performing adequately in the role of moral arbiter that you've thrust them into because of absentee parents that there are actual nazis out side not in the wolfiestein game and people have to deal with them

ah, the good old "not as bad" fallacy

[racism in games]
isn't as bad as
[literal Nazis in the streets]
therefore it's silly to discuss
[racism in games]

But it's not as discussing "lesser" forms of racism prevents any of us from also dealing with actual nazis. On the contrary, by increasing awareness of different forms of racism we're actually more likely to spot and address racism in other situations.

What's most annoying about this kind of argument is that it's only brought up when (in this case) racism is discussed. It's apparently fine to discuss [the latest Nintendo hardware] even though that's arguably much less important than [actual Nazis in the streets]. So the argument is only used to silence discussions about real topics, under the pretense of promoting "real" issues. Even though those "real" issues are almost never brought up except to silence other discussions in the same realm.

But good on you for taking on nazis, I guess.

[Capntastic]

I got ringworm from a guy in the Aryan Brotherhood last year

[jamesprimate]

seems pretty insane that when talking about racism we can only compare it to LITERALLY PEAK RACISM EVENT IN WORLD HISTORY or else "its not that bad"

[s0]

i just wanted to let you know that for every insane internecine conflict you on line guys have about whether your adult toys are performing adequately in the role of moral arbiter that you've thrust them into because of absentee parents that there are actual nazis out side not in the wolfiestein game and people have to deal with them

ah, the good old "not as bad" fallacy

[racism in games]
isn't as bad as
[literal Nazis in the streets]
therefore it's silly to discuss
[racism in games]

But it's not as discussing "lesser" forms of racism prevents any of us from also dealing with actual nazis. On the contrary, by increasing awareness of different forms of racism we're actually more likely to spot and address racism in other situations.

What's most annoying about this kind of argument is that it's only brought up when (in this case) racism is discussed. It's apparently fine to discuss [the latest Nintendo hardware] even though that's arguably much less important than [actual Nazis in the streets]. So the argument is only used to silence discussions about real topics, under the pretense of promoting "real" issues. Even though those "real" issues are almost never brought up except to silence other discussions in the same realm.

But good on you for taking on nazis, I guess.

Besides we all know that actual Real Life(tm) nazis have never used media for propaganda, so talking about racism in media is just silly.

[s0]

I see racial caricatures mixed with pop stereotypes of an non-racial origin in this game. There are some allusions to some lazy stereotypes, but where is the racism? Is it racist against Vikings or Turks? Why? Simply because they are depicted?  Honestly, that's not good enough unless the game is simultaneously reinforcing an actual racist rhetoric that effects the way Nordic and Turkish people are treated in real life.

turkish immigrants (and later immigrants from other islamic countries) have been viewed as a menace to "white" culture & society ever since they started coming to europe. if you're not white in europe, you can be a 3rd generation descendant of immigrants and still be treated as a foreigner by white people.

xenophobia is at a peak right now. extreme right parties who run on an anti-immigration platforms and sometimes have ties to neo nazi groups are getting election results that are unprecedented post-WW2 (see AFD in germany, front national in france, UKIP in the UK etc). "Islamization of Europe" rhetoric is becoming more and more popular.

close enough?