next »

[Schoq]

it's actually very hard to imagine this imagery and symbolism wasn't specifically crafted to resonate with people identifying with CERTAIN MOVEMENTS currently gaining traction not least in the home country of the devs

or maybe they're simply completely blind to the implications who knows

so ya if you don't see the big deal maybe get an idea of the situation in Europe in general and Poland in particular (I'm seeing mostly Americans itt confused about this)

[Superb Joe]

i just wanted to let you know that for every insane internecine conflict you on line guys have about whether your adult toys are performing adequately in the role of moral arbiter that you've thrust them into because of absentee parents that there are actual nazis out side not in the wolfiestein game and people have to deal with them

ah, the good old "not as bad" fallacy

[racism in games]
isn't as bad as
[literal Nazis in the streets]
therefore it's silly to discuss
[racism in games]

But it's not as discussing "lesser" forms of racism prevents any of us from also dealing with actual nazis. On the contrary, by increasing awareness of different forms of racism we're actually more likely to spot and address racism in other situations.

What's most annoying about this kind of argument is that it's only brought up when (in this case) racism is discussed. It's apparently fine to discuss [the latest Nintendo hardware] even though that's arguably much less important than [actual Nazis in the streets]. So the argument is only used to silence discussions about real topics, under the pretense of promoting "real" issues. Even though those "real" issues are almost never brought up except to silence other discussions in the same realm.

But good on you for taking on nazis, I guess.

i dont mean to say that its not an important conversation for you guys to have, as computer game fanatics, and i dont mean to engage in whataboutism, even though you could interpret it that way: i just think you should also look at it from a wider perspective. like the guy who said on the other page "is it that computer games are racist, or are they a reflection of a racist society???" like fuckin hello. of course any fuckin social ills reflected in toys are going to be a fragmented kaleidoscope view of the wider modern world. which is deeply racist. video games are just a small part of a widely connected societal miasma, half of which is deeply scared of the nba and rap music. racism in video games is a guy yelling the n word on group chat while playing hexic. the rest of the racism in video games, like the structural stuff or whatever that you want to talk about, is just shone through the regular racism light of every day life.

[Superb Joe]

however what i also want to get across is that i didnt watch that video because i dont care about that particular childrens toy and dont want to waste my time. its good for you to talk about this and whatever im just saying: i dont care, i dont know about it, i dont have the inclination to find out.but i do know what racism is, and actually theres a piece of dirt on my monitor right now which is in the exact position to make it look like this web site says Hello Superb Joé so i know first hand how it feels to be a minotirty. i went to costco in canada, you guys seen that place? its fuckin wild.

[Dacke]

video games are just a small part of a widely connected societal miasma

Well, duh. But we can't just discuss racism or culture in the abstract.

[gimymblert]

Discussing manifestation of racism in particular is a way to adress racism at large. Now allowing the particular is creating safe place for racism to be expressed and maintain its hold by cultivating and promoting itself to new people in that very space.

[s0]

i dont mean to say that its not an important conversation for you guys to have, as computer game fanatics, and i dont mean to engage in whataboutism, even though you could interpret it that way: i just think you should also look at it from a wider perspective. like the guy who said on the other page "is it that computer games are racist, or are they a reflection of a racist society???" like fuckin hello. of course any fuckin social ills reflected in toys are going to be a fragmented kaleidoscope view of the wider modern world. which is deeply racist. video games are just a small part of a widely connected societal miasma, half of which is deeply scared of the nba and rap music. racism in video games is a guy yelling the n word on group chat while playing hexic. the rest of the racism in video games, like the structural stuff or whatever that you want to talk about, is just shone through the regular racism light of every day life.

most of the people i know who are antiracist activists in The Real World (including myself) also care about racism in media. you don't need to tell me that nazis exist irl, i live in a country where a party with neo nazi ties has 1/3rd of the seats in parliament and its not uncommon for people in rural areas to own hitler portraits.

and because im worried about the resurgence of nazism as a socially acceptable worldview, i also care about the ways in which nazis use media to push their shit. or the way media influences our perception of nazis. lots of people out there have this idea that nazis are these ridiculous cartoon villains and therefore not a serious threat to free society in the 21st century. hmmmm i wonder why?

do i want games to be moral arbiters? hell no and most of the games i play contain "problematic" elements. that doesn't mean i can't also point out those problematic elements. you can have fun shooting pretend zombys with pretend guns in president weevil 5 while also acknowledging that the game taps into colonial "ooga booga darkest africa" bullshit and it probably would be better if it did not do that.

[absolute8]

I'm sorry, but calling out racism in Lichtspeer feels too similar to calling out Illuminati symbolism in pop music videos. I watch that game trailer over and over and laugh at how stupid it is. It's like a weird episode of South Park.

This videogame could have literally come from the world of South Park!

I'll develop more on this later and address further responses and arguments.

Update:

I mean out of all the games in all the world, this game is the game you guys pick for such an epic discussion? Even Superb Joe mentioned Res 5, but Lichtspeer? 

[s0]

Im not even talking about lichtgam anymore lol. I agree it wasnt the best example.

[gimymblert]

@absolout
I don't even think OP call out Lichtspeer and I don't think people were outrage about it either, they use it as a jump point to educate people about imagery and use it for a challenge, to avoid doing so whenever possible.

So the question is why are so OUTRAGED at people who aren't outrage but you decided they were because it involve racism somewhat, are you say this taboo to discuss that? What does it tell us about your insecurities? When did critical thoughts became outrage? Stop being such SJW  :^)

I mean seriously, I'm caraibean, I made a game that happen to have black women and is happening during slavery, it's meant to be the equivalent to DnD with celtic culture but with caraibean culture. And I have people like litterally BSOD on me because WHY I would do that? I mean serious? People can make game set in WW2 with mecha hitler but I can't make a fun game set in slavery? FU! i'm doing it and doubling down on it.

I think like them you are trying to pull a leg because well you are just uncomfortable and reduce yourself to the condition imposed on you.

[Capntastic]

I mean out of all the games in all the world, this game is the game you guys pick for such an epic discussion?

Probably because the discussion was about "man it's unfortunate to have all these Aryan Wonderland images in this game, especially in this current climate" and not "Let's pick a 100% Stormfront Approved Racist Game and all Agree:  Racism Bad".

[starsrift]

Also release date.

[JWK5]

I mean out of all the games in all the world, this game is the game you guys pick for such an epic discussion? Even Superb Joe mentioned Res 5, but Lichtspeer? 

What makes this one a good one to discuss is that it is subtle enough to be missed easily. I myself missed it at first until it was pointed out and I took a second good look at it. It is not that this game is literally the Devil and it should be burned to the ground it is just that it does contain imagery and themes that do have some pretty heinous ties. I don't think there is anything wrong with shedding some light on those ties and discussing how the imagery is being used, there is a lot that could be understood by it.

Again, as has been stated before, a lot of us here are creators in some form or another. I don't think any of us are discussing this game with the intention of forming an angry mob,I think it is more a matter of discussing the pitfalls we wish to avoid in our own works or would rather not see creep up in the medium as a whole.



In other news, I saw the game on the PSN today (for PS4).

[rj]

yo, absolut vodka: i'm a fellow chicago man person. here is a thought that maybe may surprise you: the specific racial politics in cook county are not the only flavor of systemic racism in the universe

i'm being a dick and i'm also late to the party here but basically maybe cool yonder jets a tad and think about the fact that people with experiences far away from your own may understand certain things better than you as a matter of course, just as it's pretty clear to you and i just how bad chicago's racism can get in a way that is perhaps more intrinsically understandable to us than some guy in europe who watched a musical spike lee film

and of course i myself as a chicago white dude only see this stuff from a perspective that's perpetually safe from it.

this is a whole fucking lichtspchpiel at this point but the tilldur is that i think even if this game is clearly not the worst example of racism in history (hell, it honestly seems less offensive to me than any given call of duty on the Society's Problem With The Other scale) it's still clearly an example of that and also one that is coded in such a way that people around and about countries closer to the geographical inspiration for its mystical euroneon may have a better insight into

[Jack Dandy]

C'mon, OP. By suggesting things such as this as racist, you only devalue the word.

In any case, I think the best idea is to simply not care so much and simply do what you will, and have the market decide.
At the end of the day, every culture has it's "Other" - enmity is part of mankind.

And as a general rule of the thumb, I believe that once you start getting into a mindset of "It's not DIRECTLY racist, but if you subtly inspect it from this & that angle than...".
It's a bad rabbit hole to go into.

[rj]

C'mon, OP. By suggesting things such as this as racist, you only devalue the word.

In any case, I think the best idea is to simply not care so much and simply do what you will, and have the market decide.
At the end of the day, every culture has it's "Other" - enmity is part of mankind.

good job brushing stuff that doesn't in any way affect you aside because you know who cares it's no biggie shruggems

also good job implying that the market decides things with any sense of morality

[gimymblert]

every culture has it's "Other" - enmity is part of mankind.

Maybe it's time we move past that? We moved past a lot of thing, it's entirely possible. Also It wasn't that true always. And we have fictional others to latch on anyway.

[Jack Dandy]

good job brushing stuff that doesn't in any way affect you aside because you know who cares it's no biggie shruggems

also good job implying that the market decides things with any sense of morality

Hey broseph, just gave my opinion. And besides, racism can effect anyone.
Anyway, I don't care about morality when it comes art.


And Gimy, yeah that would be fantastic, but.. eh. Mankind ain't ready yet for this kind of thing.

[rj]

Anyway, I don't care about morality

that's obvious enough

[rj]

it always astounds me how a refusal to grow is championed by some people as a bastion of bravery

it also astounds me how people can't seem to parse the difference between things about/containing terrible/awful things and things that -are- in some way terrible and awful in what they say (even if that way is very small).

art has a voice, that voice is important, and what you say with art is what you say as a person. and that is ideologically important and in need of consideration regardless of if you want to be an "apolitical" (read: right-wing, or at least neoliberal) jackass and pretend everything doesn't matter

[s0]

this is a whole fucking lichtspchpiel

Did you know that Lichtspiel is antiquated German word for movie?

It also literally translates to "light game", tho the actual meaning is "light play" (as in a play projected using light).

deep