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[duckotaco]

So, I posted at GameDev:

http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=532546

But I'm not getting satisfying answers. Here's the transcription of my main question...

"I wonder why is it so difficult to get to know how Super Mario Galaxy has been modelled.

Does Nintendo use proprietary tools or what? If so how is it called? Or 3D Studio Max? I'm dying to know. I would die to open the original Mario model on my computer with Max.

So, does anybody here know anything about this. Apart Mario, other games that interest me are:

Metroid Prime Corruption
Zelda Twilight Princess

There's just an appeal in Nintendo's visuals, and I don't care if they're not the best technically - they're beautiful. Therefore I want to know the tools used.

I know Lightwave was the tool of choice for Ico. But Nintendo development is enveloped in mistery, to me.
Anything you know about Nintendo's development process and graphics production, please spit it on the table.
Cheers!"


I think why I care is my problem, not theirs. I care. I want to know what tools and methods Nintendo used for those titles. Does anybody know?
Free coffee to those who will help me

[Super Joe]

they bought a standard 3d package and then artists used it. the only thing that makes it look different is rim lighting. hope this helps.

[duckotaco]

You know, I'd like to know more about their development, there isn't much around. If I'd find a developer diary of some Nintendo guy on those titles, or a blog or portfolio of Super Mario Galaxy's art director or character designer, I would be super-happy.

[Chris Pavia]

I believe most Japanese developers use Maya.  Metroid was done stateside so I'm not sure about them.  The Nintendo 'look' comes from the shaders more than the modelling program.  I know Telltale games uses Phong shaders as standard instead of the more commonly used Lambert, and Nintendo is probably doing something similar. My guess would be the Fresnel shader for that velvet look with lots of rim lighting. Ninty rim lights the hell outta their stuff.

Hope that points you in the right direction.

[duckotaco]

Thanks.
Well it's not really much, I would love to know ALL about how Mario Galaxy was made from top to bottom, go to its artist's blog, now about the technology, there'd be plenty to learn obviously and I'm disappointed by the lack of resources in english.

[Chris Pavia]

Japanese developers tend to much more tight lipped than their western counterparts when it comes to development techniques.  Which is one of the reasons western developers have surpassed them in the industry according to Iwata-San.

[duckotaco]

Well, Super Smash Bros Brawl had the most detailed development blog I've seen in a big title...

I only care about beauty in games; Japan wins the US 10-0 in this

Everybody complains about lack of creativity in western games, and it's true. This is an independent games forum, I believe - I hope - I'm not the only one here thinking that the west has a lot to learn from the east, that inspiration can be everywhere, and that Ico, Shadow of The colossus, Okami, Katamari, and Galaxy are japanese games definitely more creative and life-changing that most US-produced awfulness.

Then, of course, there is europe, french and nordic sophistication, granting us pearls like Samorost and Knytt...that's all I care about and that's why I want to know how beauty has been made. But Resident Evil 5 is crap, artistically, as all those stupid war games, and I've never felt the need to have a new Wolfenstein. This is my taste and my taste is also shared by many, from what I read around (tons of people TIRED of war games, as not all gamers are teenagers!)

If you read this and you are like-minded, rise your finger. 

[Hideous]

There are people who have converted the models to more commonly used formats, you can find them in various places.

[Hempuli‽]

I don't know very much about these graphical things, but that post comparing West and East make my heart cold.

[David Pittman]

It only seems like Japanese games are consistently outstanding because only the cream of the crop is released internationally. I'd argue that Western developers release just as many high-quality games, but the signal-to-noise ratio is higher because of the glut of low- to mid-quality Western-developed titles sharing the shelves. Tastes vary, of course, but I believe there are developers everywhere making good stuff.

I find it amusing that you call out Resident Evil 5 as crap after raving about how much we can learn from Japan. That post (and this whole thread, really) smack of fanboyism.

[Chris Pavia]

It's a nearly pointless debate to have since taste and 'what makes a good game' is so subjective.  My comment was paraphrasing the head of Square Enix, so he obviously doesn't agree with the fanboys:

http://www.edge-online.com/news/iwata%E2%80%AD-%E2%80%ACjapan%E2%80%AD-%E2%80%9C%E2%80%ACleast-robust%E2%80%AD%E2%80%9D-%E2%80%ACgames-market-world-%E2%80%AD

Now I personally prefer games developed in Japan on average because I like the style (Odin Sphere is probably one of the most beautiful games i've ever played), but I wouldn't be so bullheaded as to generalize the whole western market by saying western games are crap because there are plenty of good ones out there.

[nihilocrat]

The first reply to your post in gamedev actually answers your original question pretty well.

The style differences between Mario and Resident Evil 5 can generally be boiled down to differences in textures, mesh complexity, and shaders, as everyone has been saying. It's the cooperation of several different effects, or more commonly, just plain old stylistic choices.

Also, game source, be it in code or art files or whatever, is more likely to get stored away and forgotten for all eternity than leaked or officially opened to the public. Asking the art director to leak for you is basically asking him to risk his job, even if it's an older game that is many years old.

edit: Also, Japanese games are kinda lame, with several exceptions.

Pointless strawman comparison: Thief is lightyears beyond Metal Gear Solid and its sequels. What do you want to play, a game about sneaking and stealing stuff while avoiding open combat, or a game about sneaking just a little, boss fights, and semi-incoherent rambling?

[Nate Kling]

yeah, if your asking about modeling package it doesnt matter which one you use.  Maya, Max, lightwave, etc they will all end in the same mesh, heck you could even type the coordinates of the verts in a text document as an obj file and it would look the same.  The only difference in technology is shaders and those would be specific to mario as they would not use default or freely available shaders on their games.  The difference in art styles comes from designs of characters/settings, texture artists and lighting artists not from specific technology per se. 

[Chris Pavia]

I don't think the OP is paying attention to this thread anymore, but I don't think he'd listen to anything that's been said anyway 

[duckotaco]

Pavia, I went to your site, you're good at what you do, but you're technically good, you're not an Artist of abstract ideas. This doesn't mean that you're worse, it just means you're a different kind of person. I would like to talk to Artists. Those morons who think they're superior to anyone just because they have better and deeper ideas (ideas, not technical proficiency). Yes, them. Them I wanted to discuss the eventual superiority of japanese games or whatever, or just what and if a game is "Art". I want to make conceptual, maybe useless in your eyes, discussion. Because it's not useless just because you say so.   

I am an abstract person. I care about abstract things. Period. The tools, well you're right, who cares. My discussion about tools was in fact only a way to start a discussion about the differences in philosophy and approach between west and east, wich I believe exist and are interesting - not only in games, in anything. I tried to see if anyone in this forum is interested in that. You're not? Cool, then I'll discuss it somewhere else. No offense.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

I think there may be a psychological effect going on, because I don't actually find the models created in Japanese games or Nintendo games any more interesting or pretty than the models created for western games. In general I don't like looking at 3D models at all, there are very few of them that I'd consider interesting to look at. 2D art always looks more artistic to me, whereas 3D models often appear doll-like and lack personality. But there are a lot of exceptions. And this too may be a psychological effect, since it could just be what I'm used to.

[duckotaco]

2D art always looks more artistic to me, whereas 3D models often appear doll-like and lack personality. But there are a lot of exceptions.

I agree, and that's the point: Super Mario Galaxy is in 3D, but doesn't lack personality. Also Metroid Prime environments have amazing architecture and texturing. Resident Evil 5 is very realistic, but has no personality. That's why I would find looking at Mario Galaxy's models interesting, because they have a lot of personality, in my opinion. Whereas a Resident Evil 5 model is just realistic, nothing I'm interested in studying. I study personality, art. This is what the topic is about, I declare (after all, it's my topic). Sorry if it wasn't too clear at the beginning.

I'm  not pro-2D nor 3D, I'm pro personality in both.

[duckotaco]

JayIsGames today says it all in a review:

Ah, Japan. Progenitor to the weirdest and most original games you've ever seen. Home of Mario, Katamari Damaci, and more web-based games than you can shake a stick at. Truly, we owe those crazy thinkers a lot.

Kinda makes you want to hire an army and invade them, doesn't it?

That's all I meant about Japan, only put better by that reviewer. If only we in the west were all less arrogant and accept that some people are better in us in some things.

"Made my heart cold" someone said...yeah right, because you will never confess that some people who look completely different from you are actually very good or better than you in some areas.

I confess, instead. No problem with that. I love people who act and look and think differently from me.
Japanese designers (in games) tend to be more creative, inventive and original than american ones. There are a lot of very good american designers, of course! But the cultural tendency is that. America doesn't promote originality. It promotes a false idea of success. Period. We all know that. So what? We're all free to do or think whatever we want.   

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

I'm not sure you can blame the artists entirely, because often the games created reflect what the audience wants. The audience in the US tends to want realism, so the games follow suit.

Anyway, there's not much we can do about it by talking about it. Best just to try to make good games.

[Chris Pavia]

If only we in the west were all less arrogant and accept that some people are better in us in some things.

If you don't want to discuss the technical side of things as you stated in a previous post that's fine, it's your thread and I don't want to derail it.  But you make a lot of statements such as the one I quoted that are just gross generalizations and not correct at all, which makes it hard to take you seriously when you totally write off a whole hemisphere (not meant as an insult).  There are just as many 'arrogant' artist/designers/whatever in japan as there are in the west, and the same could be said for just about anything.  They just happen to make stylistic choices that suit their target audience (the japanese), and there are plenty of people over here to who like it as well (such as myself).  And the inverse is true as well.

Maybe I should stop beating a dead horse, but I think it's more informative to discuss why things are different, not why one is better or worse than the other, because that's entirely subjective.