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[skaldicpoet9]

I agree with Paul here guys.

Recently I got a lot of money and kind of just squandered it.

I can see where you guys are coming from but it really is only their fault for the repercussions that they have suffered. As it is the same for me and my actions. It is nice to throw caution to the wind and live for the moment but in the end you get burned and bad.

I am learning from my mistakes and I do not fault others for the same actions, I merely think that the truth of the matter should not be sugar-coated. If you make a mistake, fine, deal with it, we all do.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

To bring the topic back to Introversion, the only game of theirs that I've enjoyed was Uplink; I played through it many times and love it. I bought Darwinia and Multiwinia when they were on sale on Steam; I liked the intro with that famous chiptune, but couldn't figure out how to play the first few levels so gave up. Figuring that if I didn't enjoy Darwinia I wouldn't enjoy Multiwinia, I haven't tried it yet. I thought Defcon was an interesting idea, but found the demo too slow and couldn't get into it, the strategy element of it seemed too obvious to be interesting, although I did enjoy the atmosphere and graphics of it (parts of its graphics inspired my own game of Immortal Defense).

I think their main problem business-wise, as moi mentioned earlier, is that they just don't release games often enough. They released Uplink in 2001, Darwinia in 2005, Defcon in 2006, Multiwinia (which was basically an updated Darwinia with multiplayer) in 2008. That's four games in eight years. For a team with full time employees that seems a little slow. I think it's more effective to release *at least* a game a year, preferably two or three games a year, if you want to remain solvent as an indie. I know my group doesn't follow that advice ourselves (our last game was released in 2007), but we're not financially solvent either, and I'm pretty sure the main reason for that is that we don't release games often enough.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Oh, and not to bring the topic back to karma again, but you guys do remember how Uplink and Darwinia originally were popularized/marketed, right? Remember how they described *faking forum accounts*, creating sock puppets, faking conversations so as to get people on various forums interested in the game? It's hard not to lose respect for a company that would resort to techniques like that.

[Problem Machine]

Paul you just double-posted. Work on your game.

[redoubtable troutbot]

Oh, and not to bring the topic back to karma again, but you guys do remember how Uplink and Darwinia originally were popularized/marketed, right? Remember how they described *faking forum accounts*, creating sock puppets, faking conversations so as to get people on various forums interested in the game? It's hard not to lose respect for a company that would resort to techniques like that.

Actually, I didn't know that. Do you have a link/source? I'd be interested in reading about it.

Oh, and I'd recommend trying the defcon demo again if you didn't get to play a 6-player multiplayer game. It's really the intrigue/backstabbing that's the most interesting part of the game

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

It's pretty widely known, it was mentioned here for instance: http://gillen.cream.org/wordpress_html/?page_id=693

"When Uplink’s was first released Introversion faked forum accounts to spread the word. When Darwinia’s demo was first released, they didn’t need to. They had a small arm [sic] of devotees willing to do it for them."

Of course there's nothing strictly illegal about pretending to be several people who are in love with your game and having them talk about how much they love the game on various forums for marketing purposes, but it kind of breaks the spirit of a forum to pretend to be someone you aren't and to pretend to be several someones that you aren't.

I'll try to play the Defcon demo again eventually and get a 6-player game, it's true that I didn't try that.

[redoubtable troutbot]

it was mentioned here for instance: http://gillen.cream.org/wordpress_html/?page_id=693

Thanks.

You're right, that wasn't the most agreeable way to promote the game. But I stand by my opinion that, despite their past faults, they still deserve our sympathy. There are after all actual humans behind this company. They even make games for us.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

I think as long as that sympathy doesn't imply "I wish things would have gone otherwise for them", I agree. It's bad when anyone has difficulties, but I don't think it makes sense to wish for the impossible: when you perform actions that lead to certain results, you shouldn't blame the results, you should change the actions.

So sympathy in that sense strikes me as "oh, bad things happen! you couldn't have predicted this or prevented this, nobody knew what was going to happen!" -- except that it really could have been predicted and prevented. I don't think fate is capricious.

The main problem with blaming external factors for bad things is that if you don't believe that the results you get follow from your actions, you'll never change your actions. Even if only 1% of the results they got were related to their actions and it was 99% external factors (which I don't think is the case), it'd help to improve that 1%.

[Zaphos]

Multiwinia (which was basically an updated Darwinia with multiplayer) in 2008

That was my understanding of it too ... given which, I'm surprised if they expected anything much in terms of sales?  I mean, a multiplayer update seems like it's just something extra for hardcore fans, and might even be a free patch ...

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Yes, I remember an article they wrote lamenting that the gaming press didn't review Multiwinia very much and weren't very interested in it. I think a possible reason for that was that it was largely Darwinia with multiplayer under a new name -- it's not that enticing to review the same game over again. It's like, I didn't expect any new reviews of Immortal Defense when I released its update (with a level editor and 50% more levels), it was just a free update that had things I felt the game should have had in the first place.

[N]

They've gone through bad times...
Interesting posts.

[Craig Stern]

I consider this a cautionary tale about the dangers of overconfidence as an indie game designer.

[Rudolf Kremers]

To me it looks like introversion have an issue with deciding what they want to be, possibly because when they started they still wanted to make multi million pound budget games. I nearly fell into that trap myself when Is tarted my own company, I was still thinking of big budget games done cheaply, rather than realsing the fact that I actually only want to make games with as small and tight a team as possible, and reject the whole fundamental aspect of corporate game development when it comes to production values. For me the whole idea that it is more desirable to have £10 million to spend on development has gone out of the window, hopefully forever. All I am looking for now is games that can be made with a few people within a year, preferrably less. I personally think I am better able to develop satisfying games that way, and financially they only have to become a minor hit in order to do well. Introversion have ten salaries to pay, but don't release that many games, so their cashflow is always under threat unless they create hit game after hit game. Their games have fairly large budgets now as well which makes their situation worse. So rather than using the advantage of being independent to make scalable affordable games (budget wise) they seem to find themselves in a similar situation as many traditional devs, in need to sell a whole lot of copies to break even. I am not saying it is wrong to do that, but I am surprised they moved into that position.

[PGGB]

Yes, I remember an article they wrote lamenting that the gaming press didn't review Multiwinia very much and weren't very interested in it. I think a possible reason for that was that it was largely Darwinia with multiplayer under a new name -- it's not that enticing to review the same game over again. It's like, I didn't expect any new reviews of Immortal Defense when I released its update (with a level editor and 50% more levels), it was just a free update that had things I felt the game should have had in the first place.

They should've done Darwinia 2 bundled with Multiwinia.

[gonzorob]

I know some of the guys at Introversion; they're the nicest bunch you could ever hope to meet.  Yeah, they made mistakes (something which Paul Eres seems to be incredibly unforgiving about) but, in my mind, it takes a real strength of character to admit when you’ve been wrong

I really hope everything picks up for them. Subversion looks incredible.