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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperDesignPowerups Powerups Powerups
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p1zzaman81
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« on: February 26, 2017, 10:15:06 AM »

Hey all,

I'm rather new to this forum    Toast Left  My Word! Toast Right
I'm at a point where I am struggling with power up game design.  It is a space shooter type game like R-type or Star Fox in VR.  I want power ups in the game to provide the instant gratification of rewards and swag and also for game balancing.

My question is, what are some design tips on WHEN powerups should show up? Some options I've been exploring are

1. Random
2. Only when the player needs it
3. Deterministic: i.e Mario Bros
3. Percentage change of each type
4. A finite set of each type of powerups per level

Any thoughts? Have you had experience in any of these? Have you guys went through the same ordeal when designing your game?

Thanks! More beer   Beer!
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Pineapple
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« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2017, 06:05:29 PM »

Deterministic levels (including powerups) makes it satisfying to replay a level repeatedly to try to get the best score/shortest time/whatever. Trying to do the same thing where an element of randomness is present can be frustrating, since your score is very dependent on the RNG. Giving it to the player when they "need" it rewards players for playing badly, which usually isn't an ideal way to design a game if you want players to have fun on anything but the most casual of playthroughs.

So, my vote is for #3.
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valrus
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« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2017, 08:02:35 PM »

Gradius-type powerups are nice because you have an interesting choice: something nice now or something nicer later?  It adds some replay strategy too (like "Oh, if I just had a level 4 powerup right at that point I could have done something extra cool, I'll try to conserve them next time").

Not that you have to do it exactly like Gradius, but picture a system (akin to save points in Shovel Knight) where you can either consume a powerup or destroy it.  If you destroy it, however, a later powerup will upgrade.  (Maybe they're all level-1 powerups but destroying one upgrades all the later ones 1 level, and taking one returns all powerups to level 1.  That essentially gives you a Gradius system, albeit without the choice of when exactly you get something.  But you could have other arrangements, too, like destroying a powerup of type X doubles the effect of all subsequent powerups of that same type.)

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Photon
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« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2017, 09:32:32 AM »

That's a pretty loaded question, tbh. Powerups are utilized in such a variety of ways for a variety of purposes.

Take Mario for instance. The powerups are not only deterministic in that you get stronger with each successive level, they also function as a health system. Each "level up" on the powerup scale puts you one step farther away from failing a level, barring insta-death mechanics. Consistently playing well can help maintain not only a more powerful form, but a security blanket as well.

Contrast this with Star Fox 64. The laser powerups are also tiered, but your ability to maintain them is more contingent on your skill since they provide only a damage boost. Pure health is treated independently and, if you sustain too much damage to your wings, you lose the laser power. At that point, laser powerups turn into wing repair pickups, but even then your health pool is still separate. Powerups are not "get out of jail free" cards the same way they are in Mario.

In Star Fox 64, you're expected to take damage on a more consistent basis, so it makes sense that you don't lose powerups for each piece of chip damage. In Mario, there is more emphasis on individual enemy hits, making a powerup-health tie-in more relevant and sensible.

Those are just two examples. Can you provide some more detail on what your game is going to be like?
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p1zzaman81
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« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2017, 02:49:48 PM »

That's a pretty loaded question, tbh. Powerups are utilized in such a variety of ways for a variety of purposes.

Take Mario for instance. The powerups are not only deterministic in that you get stronger with each successive level, they also function as a health system. Each "level up" on the powerup scale puts you one step farther away from failing a level, barring insta-death mechanics. Consistently playing well can help maintain not only a more powerful form, but a security blanket as well.

Contrast this with Star Fox 64. The laser powerups are also tiered, but your ability to maintain them is more contingent on your skill since they provide only a damage boost. Pure health is treated independently and, if you sustain too much damage to your wings, you lose the laser power. At that point, laser powerups turn into wing repair pickups, but even then your health pool is still separate. Powerups are not "get out of jail free" cards the same way they are in Mario.

In Star Fox 64, you're expected to take damage on a more consistent basis, so it makes sense that you don't lose powerups for each piece of chip damage. In Mario, there is more emphasis on individual enemy hits, making a powerup-health tie-in more relevant and sensible.

Those are just two examples. Can you provide some more detail on what your game is going to be like?

Thanks for the reply.

It's a VR game that is going to be a cross between Star Fox and something like this:





So it will be like star fox in a sense that not every enemy is going to just stay there until you kill it, it will attack and fly off, it is level based and with incoming obstacles for you to maneuver around. With a boss character at the end of the level.

And it's like Xortex such that your controller is the ship and enemies come in waves.

For my game...

There will be enemies that will have multiple hit locations and different attack patterns and health.  And I want to make weapon upgrades a core gameplay mechanic. Maybe provide temporary special weapons such as a second auto turret for a few seconds.  I am still not sure how much health to give the player if it should be 3 hits and die or more.  But there have been occasions where the ship takes lots of damage because i do want to throw a lot of different enemies by waves.

Right now I have your classic health powerup, and bomb powerup (destroys all enemies in the screen), like of like games like the top down shooters 1942 or Twin Cobra (oldies). I have a time slow powerup that slows down time for 5 seconds, seen in the below video to help with the horde.

Here's an early prototype of the game i am making, just focus on the gameplay, all models are just placeholders for now





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darkhog
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« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2017, 08:08:16 AM »

I think this largely depends on the kind of game you're making. If it's a hardcore platformer or shooter, deterministic is the way to go, I think. "When you need it" option is easy to bring up balancing issues as if it is implement badly, it can make the game too easy to play and if too much randomness is introduced (so it won't always give you what you need), it can get too frustrating. Obviously for procedural games, you don't have much of a choice than to go with random.

For my game, which is a 3d platformer (link in my sig if you're interested, there's a download on the last or second to last page of the newest build), I've decided to use deterministic powerups that are placed directly in the level (no ? blocks or similar concept). This allow me to shape difficulty curve of the level better, denying player health at some points so s/he has to be careful while showering them with powerups that give them combat advantage before harder section. Also player starts with no powers aside of the dash (which is used both as a mobility tool and a way to deal with weak enemies) so it's always a clean slate. This also helps with testing levels as I don't have to consider what weapons or powerups player could bring from a previous level.
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