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[Alec]

I can probably get a rough code framework up quickly... just not sure which tech we should use yet.

Pure 2D? Or do we want hardware accelerated 2D. (3D 2D)

[Alec]

Reason I ask is cause if 3D 2D is alright, I can just use the Aquaria engine to get things started, which would speed it along a bit.

[skaldicpoet9]

I think that would be somewhat dependent on what we decide to do for the character sprites from the other games. Do we rip the original sprites or create new sprites that retain the style and feel of the originals? Personally I think that we should use new sprites that retain the feel of the old sprites and then use Alec's 3d/2d engine.

[Pacian]

Reason I ask is cause if 3D 2D is alright, I can just use the Aquaria engine to get things started, which would speed it along a bit.

I think Terry already has a basic engine for it under his bed somewhere.

No, you go look.

[Ixis]

Ah man, what a cool idea!  :D

I think 3d 2d would look cool, and offer more flexibility as far as art is concerned (and reusing resources available to you is a great idea.) So, one vote for Alec's 2d accelerated.

I also think we should do new sprites. This game idea is based around the SSB, which has it's own style regarding the characters, yet retains some of the stylistic choices of the games the characters come from.

[Alec]

I talked to Terry and it sounded like his engine wasn't that far along yet.

But I haven't seen it yet, so I don't know if he's being modest or what.

[Ixis]

Hey guys, I'm thinking of taking everyones suggestions so far and making a list of characters, hidden-characters, summons, bosses and stages, and then maybe starting a basic game design document on Google Docs that people can add to.

[Alec]

Sweet.

[Ixis]

Ok, I compiled a list of all the suggestions so far and... Yeah, there's definately gonna be some major cutbacks on the characters seeing as there's over 3 pages of main-character suggestions (even for summons including them all could be a daunting task.)

Currently, the top suggested characters are (these being characters with three votes or more):

Quote with 5 votes
Juni with 3
Lyle with 5
N with 4
Gomez with 3
Naija with 4
Noitu Love with 5
Guy Balding with 4
The Ragdoll/Spector with 3
The Stick Duelist with 3

That's 10 playable characters right there which fits the suggestion of 8-10 main playable characters (there can be other popular characters that are hidden, or if people vote on other characters highly and they go over 3 votes we can have a second vote for which characters should be main ones, and which ones shouldn't.) I personally think the current list has the heavyweights people would want to play as in an indie fighting game.

Also, I personally think we should avoid developer/commercial characters unless we have the creators approval in writing (characters like the Diner Dash girl), however, this didn't stop me from suggesting Stinkoman from 20X6...

If I spelled something wrong, or made a mistake make a post about it and I'll fix it as soon as I can. There are some characters and games I've never heard of before, so I put or a single ? next to places where I'm not sure or missing information.

THE LIST

Characters:

Ogmo (from the Jumper games) -Terry
Only problem is that Ogmo doesn't have any offensive moves, unless he can deal damage by jumping on someone's head. Along these lines, the egg thingy from Untitled Story might be more appropriate. -Terry

Lemeza (from La Mulana) -Terry

Gish (from Gish) –Terry, fish

Quote (from Cave Story) –Terry, fish, ixis, scaldicpoet9, oracle
I think this one's a given  

Mickey R. Dole (aka. The Attractor, from Clean Asia) -Terry
I think this guy could work really well - the idea being that he can't attack, but he can destroy the terrain as he moves about and shoot it at his opponent. There'd be a wee bit more work implementing him, but I think it would be worth it.

Thor (from God of Thunder) -Terry
Might be a bit obscure, but I think he'd make a good beat-em-up character.

Juni (from Knytt Stories) –Terry, fish, ixis
Like Ogmo, Juni can't attack. So I dunno if it would work.

Harry Flowerpower (from Banana Nababa) -Terry
Or Poyo, maybe?

Talan (from A Blurred Line) -Terry
In ABL, Talan has the ability to absorb other people's abilities. I figure this makes him a perfect wild card character.

Nikujin guy (from Nikujin) –Terry, pita
Does he actually have a name? If he's included, he'll have to be balanced a bit (seeing as he has a one hit kill move).

Kitty (from Game with a Kitty) -Terry
I can see this one working really well! Would have to change the controls a bit though, so that his "sky punch" move is easier to do.

Varicella (unknown) – Terry, pacian

Lyle (from Lyle in Cube Sector) – NaYoN, ixis, stij, moi, sergiocornaga

Ball (from Within a Deep Forest) –NaYoN, pigbuster

Kyntt (from Knytt) –NaYoN

N (from N) –NaYoN, fish, stij, pita

Gomez (from Fez) –fish, ixis, higgins

Alien Homonid (from Alien Homonid) –fish

Naija (from Aquaria) –fish, ixis, melly, oracle

Guy from Braid (from Braid) –fish

Lugaru (from Lugaru) –Golds, ixis

Beethro Budkin (from DROD) –tr00jg

Wik (from Wik the Fable of Souls) –tr00jg

Snood (from Snood) –Golds

Sam (from The New Satan Sam) –Stij

Ip (from The Underside) –Ixis

Haikaiman (from Haikaiman) –Stij

Clone (from Cortex Command) –Stij

Dwarf (from Dwarf Fortress) –stij

Akuji (from Akuji the Demon) –ixis, oracle

Red Knight (from Castle Crashers) –stij

Poyo (from Poyo) –Agh

Trillby (from 5 Days a Stranger) –mjau, ixis

John DeFor (from 5 Days a Stranger) –mjau

The Deer (from Endless Forest) –higgins

Soldat Dudes (from Soldat) –higgins

K? (from Path Defender) –Melly

Chick (from Boobza Sport) –moi

Noitu Love (from Noitu Love) –moi, ixis, AdamAtomic, scaldicpoet9, pita

banana nababa (from Banana Nababa) –moi

The samurai armor (from Iwanaga) -moi

Gamma Brothers (from Gamma Brothers) –moi

Hickbilly (from hickbilly bride) –moi

Alicia (from Heart Forth Alicia) –ixis

Mia (from Eternal Daughter) –ixis

Samorost (from Samorost) –rey-o

Eets (from Eets) -stij

Mr. Robot (from ) –stij

A Fighter (from Toribash) –stij

One of the Blocks from Accelematrix (Accelematrix) –pigbuster

Colored Gems (from Random Color Matching Games) –derek

Ikiki (from ) –gainsworthy

Allergic Pig or his Monster fiend (from ) -gainsworthy

RunMan or his Monster fiend (from ) -gainsworthy

Sumo (from Sumotori Dreams) -gainsworthy

the Pink Dude (from Blokketiblok) -gainsworthy

Cyber Dogs (from ) –Radnom

Stinkoman (from Stinkoman 20X6) –ixis

Guy Balding (from Balding’s Quest) –Jimbob, ixis, BMcC, siiseli

Galatea (from ) –pacian

Daisy Dash (from Diner Dash) –moi

Xoda Rap (from ) –konjak

Reimu (from Touhou) –melly

Victor (from Cedric and the Revolution) –Pita

Victor AND Cedric (from see above) –ixis

main character (from Ark22) –Javet, .TakaM

Lohn (from Sunset Over Imdahl) -Javet

the Silver Knights (from ) -Javet

Wilfred the Hero (from Wilfred the Hero) -Javet

Mr. Blocko (from Mr. Blocko?) -Javet

the Ragdoll/Spector (from Truck/Stair Dismount) –Javet, Alevice, sergiocornaga

Ninjah (from ) –Javet

Fangame Mario (from Fangame Mario) –sergiocornaga

Mario Inna Space (from ) –NaYoN

Stick Duelist (from TIG Duels) –shoot-em-upper, random, frodo091

Gabriel (from Introspect) -shoot-em-up



Hidden Characters:

Sexy Hiker (from Sexy Hiking) -alec

Pig with tophat (from ) -alec

Chainsaw Gomez (from not-Fez) –ixis, fish?


Summons:

A Darwinian (from Darwinia) -Terry
Actually, I've never really played Darwinia (only the demo). Can these guys actually fight?

Boonies (from Badlands/Gish2) –Nikica

Death Worm (from Death Worm?) –stij, gummikama, oracle, ixis, pita

Heroine from Chalk (from Chalk) –AdamAtomic

Lori (from Noitu Love) –AdamAtomic

Reiko (from Rose and Camellia) –mjau, ixis, derek

Hermies (from ) –moi

Makibishi (from ) –sharksweetheart

SHMUP Storm (from Various) –derek, ixis, stij



Bosses:

Sam (from Serious Sam I Am) –ixis

Frog Idol (from Zuma) –pigbuster

A Match 3 game () –stij, melly

Battleships (from Battleships Forever) –melly
I now want to see a Battleships Forever boss. You can destroy specific pieces of it one by one (maybe the really big one with a massive laser on the front. I think he has the force field thingy too).

N Level (from N) –melly, ixis
The 'n' level. With gold, killer drones and turrets. And if you're good you can drive those seeker missiles into your opponents.

The Hand of Yu (from …) -melly


Stages:

The Land of Ex-Girlfriends (from Superemogame) –Ixis

Path defender –Melly
A pathspace path design, with Aa sometimes popping around to place a Hate point or two, which hinders players near them.

Cube Sector (from Lyle in Cube Sector) –Melly
Cube Sector, with many throwable cubes all over the place (they could fall onto the arena over time).

Outer Wall and The Core (from Cave Story) –melly
Too many caves of the floating island are good to make arenas of, but one place I find interesting is the Outer Wall, with the wind blowing you around. The area where you find the Core is also fitting.

Hell and The Egg Zone (from Cave Story) –ixis

Floating Island (from Fez) –melly
Floating island arena that flips its perspective from time to time, making it a level for adaptable players.

Death Worm Desert (from Death Worm) –pita, ixis, gummikana

The trippiest room in Introspect -shoot-em-up







Also, I really think we should come up with a solid idea on how the gameplay functions so we can figure out how the characters fight, the rules in the game, and the game flow. This will make suggesting characters and how they fight easier to do (it'll also make it easier and faster for the programmers to work I'd assume.)

I personally suggest the game be a button-masher/simple/intuitive brawler like the SSB series (with a few tweaks.) I think it'd be faster to create characters and would be easier to code than having to throw in combos, counters and the complex structures of a standard 2d fighter.

[Alec]

In terms of gameplay I think it makes sense to start with the basics and then add an option to script / edit combo data to create some extra moves if desired.

But in all places we should keep things simple and fun.

[Radnom]

Some kind of character-creation system would be best... potentially limitless characters. An import/export character-type thing.

[Ixis]

Some kind of character-creation system would be best... potentially limitless characters. An import/export character-type thing.

That's kinda like MUGEN. Are you guys thinking of editing the attack/combo/special move data in-game, or in an editor, or standalone .txt file or something? I'm a little hesitant, mostly because of the way MUGEN is setup you have a lot of people making badly done ubalanced characters.

As for basics and such how do you think we should approach this? I'm thinking the game should be fun, quick and easy to pick up/simple (like what Alec's saying.) I think as far as basics go we should approach it in the way Sirlin commented on in his GGXX article on fighting-game balance.

The hero of our story, the oddly named Guilty Gear XX (ggxx), had quite a different genesis. It's obvious that a great deal of design went into the creation of the overall game system and into the design of each of the 20 characters. I suspected that a separate designer was assigned to each character, and from the look of the game's credits this is mostly true.

Each character in Guilty Gear XX plays very differently. I think it's easy to just read over that sentence, so I want to make it clear: compared to other fighting games, Guilty Gear XX has significantly more diversity in the gameplay each character allows than any other fighting game I have ever played, and that is saying a lot. So the game has more gameplay diversity than its peers, yet it is also one of the most balanced games in its genre. Diversity and Balance are natural enemies, so how is this possible? The solution is that Guilty Gear XX 1) has a game system that gives all characters equal access to an unusually large number of safeguards and abilities and 2) each character has some set of unique abilities that stray further from the standard template than they would in most other fighting games.

By standardizing the available defensive maneuvers I think we'll be able to achieve a good amount of gameplay balance without sacrificing creative freedom for anyone who would want to import their own characters (if we all decide to pursue that path.)

Even if we don't we'll be able to expedite the character creation process by having a standardized defensive moveset. Defense moves are usually block, dodge, back-dash, counter and counter-counter. For the sake of simplicity I say we include block and dash/run, while leaving counters open as offensive moves for certain characters. I also vote to include jump and double-jump, but no air-dash.

I think that should cover all moves and defensive moves, leaving offensive attacks/combos/skills, which will be intristic to each character.

Oh, one last thing, as far as fun/funny goes, how do you guys feel about taunts and special character intros? (Like Sol Badguy/Ky Kyske, or Ryu/Akuma, etc.)

[Melly]

It'd probably be a bit more complicated to implement, but I like when gameplay is very easy to get into, with few commands the player needs to learn, but each command has nuances that create a good deal of depth, like just holding block only prevents partial damage while doing frame-perfect blocks prevents all damage. I also heard about a game where, if you just held block indefinitely, your block would become continuously less effective until you just took normal damage, with a sort of block bar that refilled when you weren't blocking.

The same could be done with attack combos. Button mashing would get you a couple hits, but well timed button presses would give your character more momentum to unleash a larger number of stronger hits. It could also be done like Devil May Cry where the timing of your attacks also changes what type of combos you use.

I also like fluid controls. I like to be able to interrupt a combo in the middle to dodge/block an incoming attack, or to mix combos with special abilities. I really hate it when the characters have delays before or after they do anything besides the more poweful manuevers, which makes combat just not as fun, frantic and fast-paced.

[Shoot-em-upper]

Daisy Dash (from Diner Dash) –moi

I thought that her name was Flo.

I also heard about a game where, if you just held block indefinitely, your block would become continuously less effective until you just took normal damage, with a sort of block bar that refilled when you weren't blocking.

They had that in Super Smash Brothers.

Oh, and can I make a character/stage suggestion?

Gabriel and whatever the trippiest room is in Introspect.

[Smithy]

One of the admins should sticky this thread somewhere.

As a constant reminder to whoever takes on the task of development that we're all watching him with anticipation and will never forget his treachery should he abandon the project!

[Ixis]

I say people can continue to make suggestions for a while, but soon we should stop and start voting on what we like and don't.

[Blaster]

I think that for a lot of the harmless characters, instead of making them playable, it would be better to devote a stage to them, perhaps. Inparticular:

-The Endless Forest
This would be really neat, with deer now and then stopping in curiosity at the on-going battle.

-Knytt Stories
I would kind of like this one to force-scroll every now and then, so you got a whole range of environments in one stage.

It could also be done like Devil May Cry where the timing of your attacks also changes what type of combos you use.

I'm fairly against this, though I might be misunderstanding you. I haven't played Devil May Cry, but what you say reminds me of the Tekken series, and one of my pet-peeves against those games is that I felt like I hardly had control over the character, namely because the buttons did entirely different things depending on timing, rather than having a set function. It makes it more of a memorising game, and I don't find it very intuitive.

Although, thinking about it now, if you only had one or two attack buttons... it could probably work quite well. xD *indecisive*


I also realise now that the ninja from N is not named N, but is rather a nameless ninja following N, "the way of the ninja"... emphasising pacifism.

Errr, do we need to invent an explanation as to why he/she would decide to beat up others in a brawl? Or can we just ignore things like this? ^^; (I suppose this would apply to all the characters, ignoring is probably the best option, haha)

[Shoot-em-upper]

Errr, do we need to invent an explanation as to why he/she would decide to beat up others in a brawl? Or can we just ignore things like this? ^^; (I suppose this would apply to all the characters, ignoring is probably the best option, haha)

Ninjadude put on an Evil Monocle and it turned him Evil.  In fact, all of the characters are possessed by Evil Monocles.  The monocles turned themselves invisible, though, to avoid detection.  Happy?

[spidermonkey]

Haven't read through this whole thing, I'm really interested though.

But ya know what would be really sweet? Is if all the character's controls & moves were as true to their respective games as possible. For example, when playing the Soldat character you would use WASD to move and the mouse to aim & shoot just like in Soldat. Or when playing as Gish you wouldn't use the mouse, you would use the keyboard for movement along with your sticky/rock/slide moves just like in Gish. Sure, it would damn the balance of the game, but the game would probably be unbalanced anyway. Might as well go all out and do something unique, instead of just make another standard fighter. I mean let's be honest, how much more can those games evolve? Not much if you ask me.

So, that's my idea. I don't really think it's feasible though. It's just always been my dream to see that sorta game with the mainstream characters (Master Chief, Link, Dante, etc.), all with their same controls and camera views from their game. So if my idea here for this indie game actually came to fruition, it would be, like, a lesser version of my dream game....yea.

[Ixis]

Haven't read through this whole thing, I'm really interested though.

But ya know what would be really sweet? Is if all the character's controls & moves were as true to their respective games as possible. For example, when playing the Soldat character you would use WASD to move and the mouse to aim & shoot just like in Soldat. Or when playing as Gish you wouldn't use the mouse, you would use the keyboard for movement along with your sticky/rock/slide moves just like in Gish. Sure, it would damn the balance of the game, but the game would probably be unbalanced anyway. Might as well go all out and do something unique, instead of just make another standard fighter. I mean let's be honest, how much more can those games evolve? Not much if you ask me.

So, that's my idea. I don't really think it's feasible though. It's just always been my dream to see that sorta game with the mainstream characters (Master Chief, Link, Dante, etc.), all with their same controls and camera views from their game. So if my idea here for this indie game actually came to fruition, it would be, like, a lesser version of my dream game....yea.

That would be ridiculously broken, hard to program, and play. It goes against the idea that the game should be pickup and play, and instead adopts a stance that the player should already be familiar and talented at playing the indie games these characters come from (which is almost like a slap to the face, "You wanna play as Gish? Well, you're gonna have a sucky time getting used to his stick/slide/heavy commands." *killed*)

The characters could have moves and a playstyle similar to the games they come from, but the gameplay for all of those respective games is based on the genre of the game, and the best way for the player to interact with the game system. A brawler has a different way of being played that the original creators of the games optioned never foresaw.

And, I think the game can be well balanced, and making it totally unbalanced for no particular reason other than apathy seems irresponsible.

@Pita

I agree that timed attacks probably aren't the way to go, as it gets in the way with intuitiveness and pick up and play mechanics. As for inventing reasons why certain characters would have to fight, I don't think it's that much of a stretch, and a storyline isn't really required to explain it. Princess Peach never really fought before SBM, but they included her anyway. Similarly, Dr. Mario shoots anti-virus pills at people for no real reason. There really isn't much of a storyline, it's just characters fighting each other to settle schoolyard "who would beat who in a fight" debates.

As for Juni and Knytt stories, the game is based around all kinds of people telling stories and folk tales about her (the levels that other people can make.) So, maybe someone is telling the story about warrior princess Juni or something (not much of a stretch.) And having a silent/aggresive Juni beating people with an umbrella would be hilarious.

As for the N ninja, you come across interesting problems I guess, most notably, a quote from the actual game:
"You are a ninja. Your god-like speed, dexterity, jumping power, and reflexes are all a result of an amazingly fast metabolism... [N] emphasizes pacifism, humility, and the need to traverse a series of 5 rooms before the end of your lifetime."
So, in this case the character probably wouldn't fight, even in an imagined sense. Perhaps he or she could plant robot traps, but that winds up being complex and contradictory to the original source. So, I say unless in the gameworld the characters specifically have a reason for not attacking I feel it's freegame (and, personally there are other characters I think would be better suited in the main roster, but the ones highly voted are up there because of popularity.)