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[Corpus]

I made a frontpage comment right before I saw this thread, so my take on the issue is, uh.. there. It's being moderated at the minute, but it should be up shortly.

Incidentally, my comments are nearly always moderated. Is it because of length, or because of bad language?

Anyway, to the main point: personally, I think indie gaming rockstars are a very good thing. They help to promote the indie games scene, and the indie games scene is, in turn, helping to encourage a perception of games as being an increasingly legitimate art form. More importantly, they have the potential to show the world - in the next decade or so, I hope - that indie games, and games in general, can and should be cool, which is essential if they are ever really to be taken seriously by the general populace.

I think games have a chance to break away from their negative "nerd" associations in a way that comics never have done, and it'd be foolish not to take advantage of that.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

I just unmoderated two comments marked as spam which were clearly not, hopefully yours is among them.

Comments seem to get moderated due to including a url in the comment body. Any url will do it. Just linking to anything at all leads to automatic moderation.

[Craig Stern]

Hey manunderground, I think you make some valid points--these are things that have concerned me about the site as well going back several months. Having been on the forums for a while and raised some of these issues with Derek before, though, I think a large part of the problem is simply limited resources to investigate new games from relative unknowns.

It's a bit like how White House correspondents from the G.W. Bush years would simply parrot statements from elected officials rather than digging around for news stories on their own. Their stations were too understaffed for them to take on that responsibility, and the quality of political reporting suffered for it. It's a structural problem, in other words, not something resulting from bad intent.

Perhaps you should consider investigating new games, contributing articles, and maybe volunteering as an editor to help diversify front page coverage a bit.

i know its lame to speak for everyone here, but im going to do it anyway. Most game designers are usually fucked socially, putting it nicely we are delicate nerd flowers plagued by depression, isolation and many other fun anti-social issues...

:D Sorry, I just love that "delicate nerd flowers" turn of phrase. Thanks for writing that.

[aschearer]

Hey Craig, I totally agree this is a structural problem and not the result of bad intent. I think as such it's worth trying to draw it out into the open because otherwise it's very easy to miss it. (In fact some of the comments in this thread seem to underscore that, do you guys really not see how this impacts you and your peers?) Ultimately I think what you suggest, that I or someone goes and does the work ourselves then trying to get it posted, is the right solution for now, and hopefully if time permits I can do my fair share, too.

As to Edmund's comment, I'm sorry but I have to respectfully disagree. I would have said to your face "This game feels like an extended tutorial". I think the problem with that measure is it's entirely subjective. Since I'm a game designer who isn't a delicate flower (a rarity?) it's likely that I would say many things to your face that would tie your roots in a bow.

So then what can we agree on which can define our etiquette? If we can't agree what tools can we bring to bear on the problem? Personally, I think we can probably agree that flame baiting, that is comments like "this makes me want to puke", is bad. I also think we can agree ad hominem attacks are bad, e.g. "you suck, so your game sucks". Personally, I'd draw the line there and let anything else go.

If we can't agree though then there are solutions. We could have more moderation and let an editor arbitrate. We could add the ability to flag or vote on comments and let an automated system or editor react to these things. Any other ideas?

I appreciate you're a gentle flower, and I think that it's important that the indie community can support both gentle and thorny flowers. However if the two parties interests aren't quite aligned then we need to find a compromise, simply saying "No" to one of the groups won't work. Personally, I think the middle ground looks something like the gentle flowers toughening up a little bit, after all you're publishing your game to the wide world, criticism comes with the territory. And at the same time the thornier of us need to deprickle a little bit and just appreciate what others are doing and sharing.

[Craig Stern]

Spewer not only makes me want to puke, it requires me to puke.

[Corpus]

The problem was with the way they said that it felt like an extended tutorial, not simply that they said it.

As for whether or not something is being said in a jerky way, that comes down to personal judgement. If you can't work it out for yourself, you're probably a jerk too. That's the rule of thumb.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

(In fact some of the comments in this thread seem to underscore that, do you guys really not see how this impacts you and your peers?)

I don't think anyone can understand exactly how it effects things. So if you see certain things or observe things that you think should be pointed out, please go ahead. I.e. do you know of any really great games that TIGSource overlooked because they weren't made by rockstar developers? I can think of a few, but I think TIGSource manages to mention the best of new indie game releases, generally. There are a few particular blind spots, like interactive fiction, RPGs, adventure games, and a few spots which are overrepresented, like platformers and shmups, but for the most part very good indie games usually get mentioned.

Another factor is that game quality is often not the only thing readers care about. Readers may be fans of particular developers, and look forward to their new releases. For instance, no matter what increpare comes up with next, I'll probably play it, since I'm a fan of his games. If he makes a game, I want to know about it, even if it's a bad game, just cause I like following his work.

[Super Joe]

hahaha

[aeiowu]

@corpus
WordPress moderation is handled based on the email address you provide. If you give the same email address every time you comment, you'll be auto-approved.

My 2cents on the topic...

After reading 328 pages (and counting) full of hateful and negative comments on Kongregate for a game I worked roughly a year and a half solid on, I've become numb to negative stuff like this, for the most part... When TimW put Gray up on indiegames we had zero positive comments initially (except for Cactus <3). :-/ That might of stung a bit more because that game was a little more personal and we really wanted to have everyone play it even though we wouldn't see a dime (except for donations). We weren't asking for ANYTHING from ANYONE, just their time and apparently that 5-10 minutes broke the bank. Though, I am thankful for getting up on indiegames at least. Our requests to other blogs to check the game out, like RPS, have been fruitless.

Here's a rule of thumb I always try to keep in my head when reading feedback from players and commenters: "My brain will always attribute -10 for every negative comment and +1 for every positive comment." If you remember that while reading this stuff, you'll realize that fixating on negative/hurtful feedback is a losing strategy as far as your morale is concerned. Being aware of that is important and can help you put things into context.

Nonetheless, I really think this is just a general problem with the internet itself. Solely communicating through text really isn't a proper way to communicate. If you've never met someone, and you just know them through what they've written in real-time or otherwise, then you're going to assume a lot about that person that may or may not be intended or true. Beyond that though, as has been said by Edmund, there's no real recourse for acting like a total jackass on the internet because it's all remote and more or less anonymous.

Humanity isn't that mean, they don't really mean it that way, and when it's all said and done, your game/project is featured on a blog that thousands of cool people/your peers read. That's awesome!

[Tom Sennett]

The problem was with the way they said that it felt like an extended tutorial, not simply that they said it.

As for whether or not something is being said in a jerky way, that comes down to personal judgement. If you can't work it out for yourself, you're probably a jerk too. That's the rule of thumb.

The actual quote:

It’s one of these single screen flash platformers that feel like an extended tutorial.

Spoken pretty plainly and impersonally, I think. I don't see how anyone can call this excessively negative or not legitimate criticism.

While we're at it, the other main quote in question:

Wow, this game is not fun at all.

Pretty straightforward. This person didn't find the game fun. What else do you want them to say?

I believe people should speak their minds in whatever manner suits them. Creators shouldn't curl up in a ball and cry when faced with negative criticism, whether it be in a finely worded, well constructed essay or a one-shot flaming. Nor should they respond with anger toward their audience. After all, the audience is the whole reason you're making games in the first place. If someone doesn't like your game and it upsets you, MAKE YOUR GAME BETTER. Don't blame them.

If you don't want to do that, then just ignore the criticism. If you can't do that, then you should probably stop posting on the Internet. There will always be someone waiting in the wings to knock you down a peg.

[Alex May]

While I agree with anti-negativity as a notion, when I see something like this:

hahaha

It makes me realise that there is now more than one multiple-page thread of pure and unadulterated navel-gazing. I've always found it kind of off-putting when people engage in such lengthy discussions examining their own community in detail... it's a bit... euch

[mirosurabu]

I believe people should speak their minds in whatever manner suits them.

Which equals to forums with no rules. You probably know what that looks like.

But I agree that ideal solution would be to become immune to comments. I encourage you to write a how-to.

[Edmund]

As to Edmund's comment, I'm sorry but I have to respectfully disagree. I would have said to your face "This game feels like an extended tutorial". I think the problem with that measure is it's entirely subjective. Since I'm a game designer who isn't a delicate flower (a rarity?) it's likely that I would say many things to your face that would tie your roots in a bow.

I guess i either wrote what i said wrong.. or you misread it. what i said was no one would come up to you expressionless and talk about your games short comings without some kind of comforting facial expression or gesture of kindness. ive been doing this for a while and never have i EVER had anyone just come up and seriously tell me they felt something was lacking in my work without being gentle about it...

i mean i dont know you in person.. and maybe your some kinda emotionless sociopath, but most people dont just come up to you expressionless and say, hello this is why i thought your game wasn't good (that said i have worked with people who are like this).

i hate having to constantly restate this but what im talking about is "the idea of talking TO someone in a way so they listen, vs talking AT someone". im not going to go into the best way to have a conversation with someone because it will just come off demeaning... but i dont see how this is a hard concept to understand.

If you're statements are genuinely ment to aid the design of the game, then you need to watch how you say them if you want the person to listen. if they arnt, then chances are you're only saying them for your own selfish and destructive reasons.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Yeah -- let's assume the purpose of criticism is to give the developer advice on how they can improve the game. If it's stated more politely there's a chance they'll actually listen to you and make the changes. But if it's like "This game has no level editor. What a failure of a developer." Do you really think the developer will read that and think "oh, I better make a level editor right-quick for that dashing young man!"

[moi]

For having released a few of my creations in the public (another forum, another time).
I know that:
1-people tend to be dick, there's nothing you can do, just accept it and don't pay attention to pure dickery comments
2-people tend to bitch about the slightest detail that they didn't like and generally forget to express their appreciation when they like something. That's why you have to fix all the little details, and still be ready to some people's comments being limited to how they don't like the way your character jumps out of stairs or something.

[Glaiel-Gamer]

A good review can have an impact too.
Here's one some random person gave us on newgrounds for aether:

A game was submitted
where nothing quite fitted,
into the game industry mold.

And although the logo
did boast pixel mojo,
I was kind of dropped into it cold.

For even though these
mouse-gestures and keys
were familiar and easily used,

By degrees and fractions,
the game's interactions
left this newbie player confused.

My only invectives
involved quest objectives
which at times did seem quite obscure

Although this game's sleek,
Excessive mystique
can cause a game's focus to blur.

Or such was my thinking
my heart sadly sinking
as I questioned each NPC.

My mouse set to clicking,
My monster, clouds licking--
I thought that I needed a key!

For I had been trained
by previous games
to care for them more than I aught.

And though it was boring,
I kept on exploring,
with my gastro-cosmonaut,

I needn't have troubled
with all those text bubbles,
because at the height of my swearing,

I learned there's no worries
about rock backstories--
They are nothing more than red herrings!

Each talkative rock,
whether happy or sad,
is just part of the backdrop!
When I learned, I was glad.

Like most button-hunts,
this puzzle's mechanical.
Once you learn all the stunts,
it's much less tyrannical.

I started to sneer
and soon swelled with pride,
for I'd learned to steer
My Lovecraftian ride.

It's about licking, mostly:
Moons, crystals, and blobs.
A Cthulhu-esque Yoshi
meets Calvin and Hobbes.

This game's quirky fun,
novel and mind-bending.
And nothing and no one
prepared me for that ending!

So this game earns my ten.
'Tis a romp without equal!
Now I lay down my pen...
to dream of a sequel.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Ha, that is great. A sequel to Aether would be nice.

[Seth]

Edmund and Paul keep talking about constructive criticism and not saying things in a terse way because that's unlikely to get developers to listen to your criticisms... but I don't think comments like "this game is no fun" and "this game feels like an extended tutorial" don't result from being a jerk and not caring how a developer will react to reading the comment, and instead of not assuming the creators will be reading the comment.  In other words, you guys keep talking about these comments as if they were meant solely to reach the creator, when I don't think they had the creators in mind at all and meant just to talk about it with the community.  It's not "would you ever say this to my face" it's "would i overhear you say this when you're talking to someone else." Haven't you guys ever said something like "this game's not very fun" simply because you weren't intending to speak directly to the creator?  I think if there is a problem then it arises from forgetting, or not assuming, that the creators read the tigsource comments rather than being an asshole for its own sake.

[Edmund]

Edmund and Paul keep talking about constructive criticism and not saying things in a terse way because that's unlikely to get developers to listen to your criticisms... but I don't think comments like "this game is no fun" and "this game feels like an extended tutorial" don't result from being a jerk and not caring how a developer will react to reading the comment, and instead of not assuming the creators will be reading the comment.  In other words, you guys keep talking about these comments as if they were meant solely to reach the creator, when I don't think they had the creators in mind at all and meant just to talk about it with the community.  It's not "would you ever say this to my face" it's "would i overhear you say this when you're talking to someone else." Haven't you guys ever said something like "this game's not very fun" simply because you weren't intending to speak directly to the creator?  I think if there is a problem then it arises from forgetting, or not assuming, that the creators read the tigsource comments rather than being an asshole for its own sake.

This could be a factor but most people who make these comments know that the developers are active on TIG and will read their comments.

[Seth]

How are you so sure of that?