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[cynicalsandel]

There you go again.

Child-friendly themes imply child-friendly gameplay in Nintendo land.

So wanting more interesting and more immersive games makes you less mature.

I just need certain mechanics and challenges to go along with it, exploration alone doesn't do it for me.

"I'm not backtracking or twisting, just 'elaborating' by changing my argument." If you're going to sit here and blame me for "inferring" that you're saying that child-friendly gameplay (or Nintendo gameplay) is less mechanically nuanced than games with mature themes, it's on you. You can't just spit out what you have and then later add "context" and then blame us for not reading it how you wanted. Not that I believe your backtracking is your original intent.

I even wanted to bring up how much deeper mechanically games like Tropical Freeze and most Mario games are compared to AAA games with mature themes, but I knew you'd just backtrack and try to throw it back at me that you don't care about mechanics only "immersion" which is essentially meaningless and subjective. Or you'd argue that those games aren't mechanically deep. I don't even know what you actually value because it always seems to change to serve your argument.

You can keep sitting back under your guise of "rationality", but eventually people are just going to stop engaging with you completely because it's just not worth the effort. I mean a mod has to step in and tell us (probably me) to be decent, but you can just sit there and hurl remarks like

Of course, in case you are a person who is not very perceptive for atmosphere then there is not much point debating it.

and

But I am not going to justify myself everytime to teenagers who aren't able to perceive a message without bias.

You are not more rational. You just pretend you are.

[JWK5]

I don't think he is arguing it needs to be a gore fest or gritty FPS or whatever, he might just be having trouble nailing down exactly what the feeling is. If you look at the early Metroid games they had a kind of dark atmosphere to them, like something out of Aliens. The games were moody, to a degree, and you got the feeling of desolate isolation they were trying to convey:







With the GBA Metroid games they kept the isolated feel but they started drifting away from the moody environment schemes to something more colorfully "Nintendo", maybe an after-effect of Samus being in Super Smash Bros. The games also started drifting away from their difficulty levels, becoming much more accessible to a general audience. The Metroid Prime games did a decent job of trying to capture some of the feel of the first games, but with the latest Metroid games they have moved into being more accessible, more colorful, and more action-focused than being exploration and experimentation-centric.





I think that may be what J-Snake is getting at (or maybe I am completely wrong). I think by "child-friendly" he means the Metroid games have been progressively made more accessible, more generally appealing (with their Nintendo-ified color schemes), and have lost their (maybe niche) original appeal for a lot of people (the Castlevania series also comes to mind in that regard). They feel less creepy "sci-fi" and more action cartoon-like.

let platinum make a metroid game

Oh fuck yes!!!

EDIT: My post got all fucked up, lol. I had to fix it.

[Photon]

im either case, metroid, no, will never be an r-rated gorefest, but also it doesn't need to be. the game isn't about that. pushing its envelope too much in the wrong direction would distract from where the game's actual horror lies- samus's absolution of loneliness in a cold world. these games are existential horror wrapped in sci-fi exceptionalism and they aways have been, especially in the cases of metroid 2, prime 2, and fusion

This is how I feel as well. That being said, I find it interesting how different people latch on to different aspects of a game, to the point where mentally the game's entire identity is wrapped up in that single element. I think one great example is difficulty, and I can sympathize with this one even if I don't always agree with it on a case-by-case basis. Tweaking "foundational" aspects can feel akin to video game sacrilege.

That being said, save for maybe the last couple of entries, I don't feel like Metroid has strayed very far from what made it a great franchise. I'm also genuinely interested in "Samus Returns" as well. But I'm also not a "diehard" Metroid fan, so I guess take all of this with a grain of salt?

[cynicalsandel]

you have to take into account that gba games were given a brighter palette to account for lack of a lit screen on the handheld. playing gba games in emulators is not the same experience as it would've been at the time.

[JWK5]

you have to take into account that gba games were given a brighter palette to account for lack of a lit screen on the handheld. playing gba games in emulators is not the same experience as it would've been at the time.

I know, I had the games on the GBA (handheld, not emulator). But that doesn't quite hold up because I also had the original Metroid on the GBA too, and there was no problem with its visibility either.

[J-Snake]

There you go again.

Child-friendly themes imply child-friendly gameplay in Nintendo land.

So wanting more interesting and more immersive games makes you less mature.

I just need certain mechanics and challenges to go along with it, exploration alone doesn't do it for me.

"I'm not backtracking or twisting, just 'elaborating' by changing my argument." If you're going to sit here and blame me for "inferring" that you're saying that child-friendly gameplay (or Nintendo gameplay) is less mechanically nuanced than games with mature themes, it's on you. You can't just spit out what you have and then later add "context" and then blame us for not reading it how you wanted. Not that I believe your backtracking is your original intent.

The context is obviously Metroid from the beginning. I am not twisting anything in. Yes, I want more immersive games, and more immersive Metroids would provide them. Where do I say child-friendly gameplay is generally bad? I don't want it in a Metroid game. Take a look at the boss fight footage in the new Metroid Returns remake for example: Feels very simplified and gamey to me. Do you expect vicious creatures to behave like that? And the overall visual style isn't atmospheric anyway. So gameplay and aesthetics can go hand in hand here.

I even wanted to bring up how much deeper mechanically games like Tropical Freeze and most Mario games are compared to AAA games with mature themes, but I knew you'd just backtrack and try to throw it back at me that you don't care about mechanics only "immersion" which is essentially meaningless and subjective. Or you'd argue that those games aren't mechanically deep. I don't even know what you actually value because it always seems to change to serve your argument.

Your claim is essentially "Nintendo gameplay" is mature because it can be deeper than the gameplay in some mature themed AAA games. But a mature theme doesn't imply mature gameplay. So you make a logical fallacy. Of course I care about mechanics, and I don't see why I have to twist any argument.

[cynicalsandel]

i didn't play the gba version of metroid because zero mission existed, but from what i can research the palette of the nes port was different not that i can verify it or determine how much impact it had on visibility


this is from the unlockable version in zero mission. the classic nes cartridge might be different, but from what i know about the nes palette it was never really set in stone because of how tvs worked anyway.

regardless i don't think it detracts from my argument. i'm trying to find the article i read recently on the palette from fire emblems before and after lights were introduced in the handhelds and it's very noticeable. it might've not been necessary, but it was something nintendo did, and it still affects how many gbc and gba games look today now that backlights are everywhere.

[J-Snake]

I don't think he is arguing it needs to be a gore fest or gritty FPS or whatever, he might just be having trouble nailing down exactly what the feeling is.

Yeah, that's right.

[cynicalsandel]

Your claim is essentially "Nintendo gameplay" is mature because it can be deeper than the gameplay in some mature themed AAA games. But a mature theme doesn't imply mature gameplay. So you make a logical fallacy. Of course I care about mechanics, and I don't see why I have to twist any argument.

The point was you make the same fallacy in the opposite direction.

Child-friendly themes imply child-friendly gameplay in Nintendo land.

Child-friendly themes imply child-friendly gameplay in Nintendo land.

[J-Snake]

I think that may be what J-Snake is getting at (or maybe I am completely wrong). I think by "child-friendly" he means the Metroid games have been progressively made more accessible, more generally appealing (with their Nintendo-ified color schemes), and have lost their (maybe niche) original appeal for a lot of people (the Castlevania series also comes to mind in that regard). They feel less creepy "sci-fi" and more action cartoon-like.

You captured it well with "cartoon-like". And "more generally appealing" by going cartoon-like is actually what is mind boggling, given that the game actually wanted to live up to an Alien-like atmosphere, and I think that is where it would live up to its full potential as mature gameplay can be combined with mature atmosphere. So "more generally appealing" actually means "more appealing towards the younger demographics", I would assume.

[J-Snake]

Your claim is essentially "Nintendo gameplay" is mature because it can be deeper than the gameplay in some mature themed AAA games. But a mature theme doesn't imply mature gameplay. So you make a logical fallacy. Of course I care about mechanics, and I don't see why I have to twist any argument.

The point was you make the same fallacy in the opposite direction.

Child-friendly themes imply child-friendly gameplay in Nintendo land.

Child-friendly themes imply child-friendly gameplay in Nintendo land.

What I am saying is that if the Nintendo game has a child friendly look to it, then it has to have child-friendly gameplay. Haven't seen exceptions at least.

(Btw. as a contrast, this is not true for my puzzle-game Trap Them. It looks a bit cold and dry but it has a child-friendly look to it. Yes, I even removed blood, as ridiculous as it sounds, after few requests for the kids. But it does not have child-friendly gameplay. In the beginning it looks like it has as you have room to successfully toy around with relative ease. But later a high degree of abstraction and conceptual thinking is required to succeed. And that is an area where children lack. Mario can be hard in terms of dexterity but those are natural skills children develop, it doesn't require a high level of abstract thinking in order to be played.)

[cynicalsandel]

holy cow i finally found the gba palette comparison i was talking about
http://cyangmou.deviantart.com/art/Pixel-Gameart-101-04-687587548

maybe it's not really relevant but it'd be interesting to do a similar study between metroid fusion (before sp) and zero mission (after sp). metroid zero mission being a remake/reimagining of the first metroid probably makes it a little bit more difficult to compare as different setting compared to fire emblem being just here's the grass and trees in this game vs the grass and trees in this game.


Edit: nice edit

[s0]

gba ports of snes games usually looked both brighter and less saturated than the originals.

comparison here:

[JWK5]

It's not about the brightness, it is about the choice in color palette. The GBA Metroid games use a more vibrant color scheme, something more along the lines of a WayForward game. The GBA games themselves were still good, they still managed to create some interesting atmospheres, but my point is they moved away from the more grittier look of the first three Metroid games. The palettes are more poppy.

Some of that choice may have been motivated by the issues of the GBA screen, sure, but I think primarily it is just in line with the shift Nintendo has made to give their characters and game worlds a sort of unified color range which has worked great for games like Super Smash Bros. (etc.) and also for selling their Amiibos and whatnot. Nintendo games are becoming very identifiable by their color palettes and how all the games seem more and more to be staying within a certain color range (especially their saturation levels and hue warmth).





It is not necessarily a terrible thing, I just think it has kind of driven the Metroid series away from its roots color-wise and mood-wise. For some this is preferable, for others not so much.

[ProgramGamer]

J-Snake, all I wanted you to do originally was justify why you felt that, despite having dark themes, Axiom Verge was not fun to you. Instead, you decided to argue about the drone in AV being inferior to Metroid's morph ball and going on about theming.

Also, I'm no teenager. I don't know why that's relevant to you, but I'm a young adult, as someone else pointed out.

[JWK5]

The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:

Person 1 asserts proposition X.
Person 2 argues against a superficially similar proposition Y, falsely, as if an argument against Y were an argument against X.

[J-Snake]

J-Snake, all I wanted you to do originally was justify why you felt that, despite having dark themes, Axiom Verge was not fun to you. Instead, you decided to argue about the drone in AV being inferior to Metroid's morph ball and going on about theming.

I was going about theming in Metroid because it was an important point that has been discussed here. I really don't care much about Axiom Verge so I mocked that you can't morph-ball in this game. But since you insisted on it and I like discussing mechanics, I added few slices of thoughts regarding that. I still study the flaws and missed potential in Axiom Verge. It is at least a lesson for me how to not make a metroid-like game. So in case I decide to go for it, I actually want to create a Metroid-like game, not just a metroidvania.

[gimymblert]

Anyway, child friendly nintendo that has been shoving idea about death to all children, I mean mario galaxy is about discovering that a mother is dead and that the galaxy will die at the end ...

Let's not talk about the fuckery that is OOT and MM, especially majora's mask, it's all about dead people, coping with pain and death and even the seemingly happy ending don't wash everything (hello deku butler). Even other game have dark implication when you start thinking about them 2 seconds because they have fucked up canon lore. There is a reason people are so into "deepest lore". Nintendo don't hit you at the visual gritty looks, they hit you with existential dread.

About Morph ball, fuck axiom verge, TURRICAN IS WHERE THE COOL KIDS ARE (have a morph ball). But if you want to discuss the dynamic of transforming into ball conserving momentum, that's sonic for you, I know there is a lot of similarity (labyrinthine level, doing a spin jump attack, running fast, going into a ball to get into tight corridor).

THAT said Anybody who know the metroid canon know that Samus had a prover left for unconfirmed dead, wait for later metroid bringing that point back because they need a new daddy adam malkovich, given they have been sexing up samus armor since other m (and even more in the new 3ds game), they really want us to not forget samus is a "girl".

[J-Snake]

About Morph ball, fuck axiom verge, TURRICAN IS WHERE THE COOL KIDS ARE (have a morph ball). But if you want to discuss the dynamic of transforming into ball conserving momentum, that's sonic for you, I know there is a lot of similarity (labyrinthine level, doing a spin jump attack, running fast, going into a ball to get into tight corridor).

No my friend, the true power of morph-ball belongs to me, that means to my version of Metroid. It will show you how real traversal puzzles and combat-usage looks like.

[gimymblert]

As long as it is in 3d, ie not backward.

Also that sweet c&d letter in the waiting, don't forget to post it