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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperDesignIs a Rhythm FPS possible?
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yotingo
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« on: August 21, 2017, 11:31:05 AM »

I'm trying to design a Rhythm First Person Shooter but it's proving to be more challenging than I expected.  Tired

The goal is freedom from FPS movement and agency mixed with the intense thrill of not messing up when things get hectic in a Rhythm game.

My inspirations for the rhythm aspect have come from games like One Finger Death Punch, Kick Beat, Beat Buddy, and Dance Dance Revolution.

I don't intend for it to be musically driven (like Beat Buddy). I'm more interested in rhythmic action (like One Finger Death Punch).



Any suggestions or ideas on how to make this happen would be incredible!
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diegzumillo
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« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2017, 02:15:08 PM »

Never played one finger etc but "Rhythm First Person Shooter" sounds interesting. The very fact you (and I) have no idea if it's going to work makes it exciting already.

The thing about normal FPS is that movement is completely smooth, as opposed to discrete. Discrete things are easy to connect to rhythm mechanics. But you still have shooting and jumping, which could be a good start for experimenting. Damange could be proportional to how well timed it, and if you jump exactly on tempo you land on tempo as well causing a shock wave.

I would also experiment with different movement schemes. For example, making movement kinda like skating or dashing, you choose a direction and woosh you go, 2 meters until you stop. You can still control the trajectory smoothly, more or less so you can avoid hitting walls which would break your rhythm. Successfully moving in tempo grants the player more speed and/or more control over the dash.


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bombjack
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« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2017, 12:43:13 AM »

The idea seems interesting.
Do you plan to make movement rhythm based too ?
A little like the crypt of the necrodancer, I expect this to be interesting in a fps.
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Oskuro
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« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2017, 01:29:56 AM »

Well, there are plenty of Rhythm-based FPS games out there, it's only that they don't seem like it at first because, rather than the music, the rhythm the player needs to match is that of enemy attacks and weapon rate of fire.

A good example is Quake, where the abundance of shotgun ammo and close combat enemies meant you had to time your close range shotgun blasts with each specific enemy and their movement and attack patterns.

At points during the game you'd get in the "zone" and flawlessly weave around enemies while blasting them, sometimes in tune to whatever music you'd be listening to.

I personally get into that same zone when playing some more modern games, like the new DOOM, not to mention that most elaborate boss battles in any kind of game tend to be all about rhythm.

Modern combo-kill systems are also about rhythm to a great extent, where you have to time your attack's cooldowns properly to achieve higher kill-streaks.

I guess any of those systems could be made to match the music, or an approach like that of Crypt of the Necrodancer could work, where keeping the music's rhythm awards a damage/loot bonus, could be used, in order to make it more of a Music-Rhythm-FPS.


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LyricalReverie
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« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2017, 02:58:01 AM »

Someone made a rhythm-based roguelike dungeon crawler (Crypt of the Necrodancer), so to me anything is possible!
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 03:43:45 AM by LyricalReverie » Logged
yotingo
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« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2017, 03:19:41 AM »

Thanks for the ideas! Your first idea has got me thinking... I wonder what would happen if the player chose 'songs' to load into their gun instead of reloading normally. The song would dictate when and how the bullets were fired.

I especially like the idea of experimenting with movement. It sounds like a lot of fun to skate around the level at high speed because you're in sync. Conversely it would be equally frustrating to get stuck in front of a wall of incoming enemy bullets because you messed up and can't move fast enough.

My only concern with tying movement into the rhythm is whether it would feel like a restriction or a freedom. Reward vs. punishment balancing.

Oskuro, I've never realized how much timing is involved in shooters. When you start to think about it that way, it's everywhere! How could you take the shotgun-blasting rhythm of Quake and make it last for 2-3 minutes at a time? No pauses between enemies.

Crypt of the Necrodancer looks cool, I'm going to have to pick it up. For... "Research"...  Grin

What is your favorite thing about playing a rhythm game? The music? The action?
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LyricalReverie
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« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2017, 04:33:12 AM »

Well, a rhythm game obviously needs good music. It can be licensed music like in the Ouendan (as well as Elite Beat Agents) games. It can be original music like the Crypt of the Necrodancer soundtrack or the soundtrack of my favorite rhythm game (which, by the way, happens to be kind of a rhythm/fighting game hybrid), Bust a Groove 2. Or even music where you are a key part of actually playing it through the gameplay, like in Rhythm Heaven.

The gameplay is also deeply important. I could never get into stuff like Guitar Hero, but I love Rhythm Heaven. I think Rhythm Heaven is the series that does rhythm gameplay better, as it attempts to teach you to learn rhythm while playing the game. It is fun, simple (you only press two buttons the whole game) and rewarding (once you realize you are getting better).

Here are three of the best mini-games/tracks in Rhythm Heaven.

/watch?v=4f_2e36J1FY
/watch?v=pMPf9jvLSdM
/watch?v=LCmnBoONJTs

Sorry, I tried to link the videos directly but the formatting got all ugly and that was killing me from inside.

In the second video, Air Rally, notice how the game partially takes away the vision of the player. The purpose is so you rely entirely on the rhythm and not on the visual cues! Clever stuff. Noir

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yotingo
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« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2017, 06:53:35 PM »

Thanks for all the references Lyrica. I haven't heard of most those games. What did you like about Bust a Groove more than something like Dance Dance Revolution or Parapa The Rappa?

Rhythm Heaven looks really interesting. How often did you replay mini-games? I would worry about getting tired of the same stages when they are so scripted. I suppose they keep things fresh with new mechanics like the airplanes in your second video.

In a 6 hour FPS/Rhythm game it would be difficult to get enough unique music to last for the length of the campaign without replaying songs. Because of this, I was thinking that your idea of making musical notes a key part of the game-play might be more practical.
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LyricalReverie
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« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2017, 05:41:41 AM »

Bust a Groove and Bust a Groove 2 had minor fighting game mechanics, like you could use special moves to mess up the opponent player's (or the AI's) rhythm. It was interesting. Plus, the funky character design and the music were so good.

Here is an interesting "fight" in the second game

/watch?v=aENTooD9fDM

You get to have a dance fight against a giant robot, how awesome is that?

I also like DDR and Parappa the Rapper, but those games didn't leave such an impression on me.

As for your question on Rhythm Heaven, I would replay the minigames I liked the most a lot of times. The Air Rally minigame, for example, was one of the games I played the most. Not only it takes a while for you to get good on it, it is also really fun.

Rhythm Heaven also have the remixes, which takes parts of other mini-games to form a new one. I think I linked a remix above.

Here is another remix, though

watch?v=qqcBhL8XxYI

You could go for a more arcade-y approach. Instead of having a six hours long FPS campaign, you could have levels instead, of which the player could replay. That would extend the duration of the game and still allow for you to tell a story, if that is your intention.
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Photon
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« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2017, 06:00:05 AM »

Someone said "Rhythm FPS" and I almost immediately thought of this:

http://ddrkirby.com/games/rhythm-gunner/rhythm-gunner.html

Its not an FPS, but it still has concepts that could be relevant to the idea.
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ProgramGamer
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« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2017, 07:39:12 AM »

(if you want to link to a youtube video without it automatically embedding, just add a question mark at the end of the link, like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4f_2e36J1FY?)
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LyricalReverie
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« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2017, 08:25:33 AM »

(if you want to link to a youtube video without it automatically embedding, just add a question mark at the end of the link, like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4f_2e36J1FY?)
Thank you!
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rj
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« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2017, 01:16:04 PM »

cmd + f "rez"

no results

excuse me

ok, so rez is an on-rails shooter. shoot me, but the principles are pretty applicable still. it's a video game where your gun is locked to the beat. there's a lot more to it than that, but also, like, that's a pretty strong core right there.





make bullets also fly in time with the beat (instead of smoothly lazering across the arena with some amount of travel time, they choppily would "skip" along their path, boom bap boom bap one-two-three-four, as if their framerate was beatlocked to 32nd notes), force reloads to be tied to the beat. don't restrict most movement, but restrict crouching/sliding and uncrouching/jumping to the beat. have a sprint that you have to tap in perfect time to the rhythm to keep speed up.

force the player to time their shots and the enemies they focus down so they land on the beat. if you don't have an enemy to fire the shotgun shell at, you end up with a jammed gun for a few beats.

shit like that.
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yotingo
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« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2017, 04:55:56 AM »

haha Lyrica, you're right, dance fighting a giant robot did look pretty awesome! Does Bust a Groove have a Playstation store re-release for modern consoles?

I thought the other Rhythm Heaven Remix was just a trailer but that makes a lot more sense now. Also, monkey high-fiving and pea stabbing... wonderful!

As obvious as it seems, I honestly had never thought about going with an arcade approach for my concept. I had my mind stuck on open-world-ish but level based would have a lot of great advantages I didn't realize.

Photon, thanks for the link! That game is really addicting and impressively solid for a game jam. It's fun timing your shots.

I had no idea how many rhythm games there are I haven't heard of half these and they all look amazing. Rez in VR looks even better. I can picture a game using all those things you described. On beat: shoot, shoot, dodge, shoot shoot, sprint, sprint, sprint, shoot, reload, shoot, shoot, dodge. Sprinting with rhythm could be really neat.

Most rhythm games see to focus on one specific game-play element to attach rhythm mechanics to (shooting, dodging, dancing). Would it asking the player to multiple actions on beat be too much? Dodge on beat, now shoot on beat, now reload on beat, now jump, etc. How many different keys are too many for a fast paced rhythm game?
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raigan
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« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2017, 07:06:53 AM »

I'm a bit surprised no one remembers Chroma (or didn't find it by simply googling "rhythm based FPS"): https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/chroma-mixes-music-first-person-shooting-thumping-neon-landscapes/

I haven't played it but I remember reading about it, and given the pedigree of the dev team I would imagine they've got some good ideas on how to integrate the two types of gameplay.
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LyricalReverie
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« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2017, 08:51:08 AM »

haha Lyrica, you're right, dance fighting a giant robot did look pretty awesome! Does Bust a Groove have a Playstation store re-release for modern consoles?

I thought the other Rhythm Heaven Remix was just a trailer but that makes a lot more sense now. Also, monkey high-fiving and pea stabbing... wonderful!

As obvious as it seems, I honestly had never thought about going with an arcade approach for my concept. I had my mind stuck on open-world-ish but level based would have a lot of great advantages I didn't realize.

[...]

Most rhythm games see to focus on one specific game-play element to attach rhythm mechanics to (shooting, dodging, dancing). Would it asking the player to multiple actions on beat be too much? Dodge on beat, now shoot on beat, now reload on beat, now jump, etc. How many different keys are too many for a fast paced rhythm game?

Unfortunately, there were no re-releases. Playing the game on an emulator is also not recommended, as the input lag messes up with the game and kills the joy of playing it. As far as I know, playing it on the actual PlayStation One is the only way to play the game properly.

It is kinda like Mother 3, which doesn't work well on emulators because of the rhythm-based battle system. By the way, check it out, if you haven't. It is a turn-based RPG with rhythm-based mechanics during battles. Fun stuff.

As for your question, less is more. You can ask the player to do all of those things, but keep it simple. Maybe press A to shoot, press B to dodge, press A+B to reload or dance. Etc.
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yotingo
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« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2017, 04:11:01 PM »

I've made a couple quick prototypes. Please let me know what you think of the mechanics!

The first idea is that the player must shoot the boxes as soon as they turn green. The player will take damage from shooting too early or too late.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7uISYQ32sU&feature=youtu.be

The second idea is that you must time your gun shots. If there is a high-hat after the shot, you may shoot again immediately. Otherwise you must wait until the snare. Attempting to shoot too early will cause the gun to jam and be reloaded. Making it unable to fire for a short time.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpuYGCKYwxY&feature=youtu.be

Please note that nothing in these videos are finished, it's all rough prototyping. I'm just trying to figure out how all the mechanics might work.
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