test84
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« on: August 24, 2017, 01:45:37 AM » |
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Hey guys,
How would you improve and/or introduce something new in a retro 2D platformer shooter? I've made one and it was fine (on Steam, PM me for the link, don't want to get accused for self-promotion) but for the remake/sequel I need something that attracts people, something to stand out in the crowd.
Also the game is set in Prohibition era so lots of illegal activities (back then) is in the theme that we didn't cover.
I was thinking of bootleg beer that would find in back of the houses and each would either power up or power down you but it's not enough or anything major.
I'm open to the idea of adding roguelike elements but I think it needs something very interesting added to it's core and then add all these on the top.
What would you suggest/do?
Thanks
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-Ross
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« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2017, 12:52:26 PM » |
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That's kind of the million dollar question isn't it? Usually people start mixing genres to make something new, but sometimes someone makes a game that is just plain better than any recent game in the same genre.
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TGHoly
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« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2017, 02:09:15 PM » |
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IMO to make it appearl to people to buy the game first thing to do is give it best graphic you possibly can (and hope it's look great for the mass), since it's first thing people can experiance even before they buy the game normally when I go to steam I don't even bother to check game feature if it screenshot/trailer didn't catch my attention.
for game mechanic maybe you just try to reuse exist mechanic from another game and elevate those mechanic to keep it fresh but since we will never know which kind of mechanic people would love in such kind of game maybe the best way is just make what you think it cool but also try to make thos mechanic simple and easy to understand.
and since it's plateformer character control should be tight give player feel like their alway character total in control, I've play the game like warframe and truly while their game design around grinding over and over but just it character control alone make me enjoy enough.
another idea is instead of focus on mechanic you might consider to attracts player with story telling since it's can keep player to pay attention to the game even your game didn't offer any new mechanic.
sorry for my bad english
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« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 02:15:06 PM by TGHoly »
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test84
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« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2017, 04:50:27 AM » |
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That's kind of the million dollar question isn't it? Usually people start mixing genres to make something new, but sometimes someone makes a game that is just plain better than any recent game in the same genre.
It sure is but there should be a way to properly evaluate a project before even starting to think about it. I think there are no guarantees but there should be way(s) to predict and I think this helps my question here.
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Clipper
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« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2017, 05:38:39 AM » |
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Why not take the Team Ico approach?
Instead of adding features, how about removing them?
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Squire Grooktook
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« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2017, 01:18:51 PM » |
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IMO:
Get an understanding of the genre before anything else. Play all the classics and finely analyze them. Understand why they were and are great. Find out what you like, and why you like it.
Then come up with something that's "you".
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ydobemos
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« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2017, 10:19:05 PM » |
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I don't think extra features really impact a good platform shooter, it's more about having a really solid base game - good movement, good feel of the weapons. There probably aren't that many original ideas, but you can take an existing one and really polish it. To me one of the best run and gun games is still Abuse -
For its time it had the new thing of mouse controlled 360 degree aiming (I guess also dynamic lighting), but besides that it has excellent movement feel, great weapons, destructible parts of the level, secrets, huge swarms of enemies. Basically just did the idea of such a game really well. So it's possibly a good idea to just use the time you would use for coming up with gimmick features for really polishing up the core game. And if you need a gimmick then physical interactions are always great - if shooting sends the enemies, objects and lots of particles flying everywhere that's always satisfying.
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test84
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« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2017, 04:21:55 AM » |
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I don't think extra features really impact a good platform shooter, it's more about having a really solid base game - good movement, good feel of the weapons. There probably aren't that many original ideas, but you can take an existing one and really polish it. To me one of the best run and gun games is still Abuse -
For its time it had the new thing of mouse controlled 360 degree aiming (I guess also dynamic lighting), but besides that it has excellent movement feel, great weapons, destructible parts of the level, secrets, huge swarms of enemies. Basically just did the idea of such a game really well. So it's possibly a good idea to just use the time you would use for coming up with gimmick features for really polishing up the core game. And if you need a gimmick then physical interactions are always great - if shooting sends the enemies, objects and lots of particles flying everywhere that's always satisfying.
Oh man! You didn't just post Abuse! I'm in love with the game! I've been telling people about it forever, the you could face backwards and fire while still running forward, such a classic. Those jungle levels. Wow. I'm all with the solid gameplay and honestly I'm not good with coming up with new and innovative game ideas as I don't really like playing them. I'm all about playing good old games with solid gameplay rather than something new. I like testing new stuff but I get my jam from playing what I know and trust. Long conversation why but probably not suited for this topic. Problem with my approach is what people say. When there still was Greenlight in the business, I used to make prototypes and test with my friends and when they were good enough, would upload it there and people would lash out that "there are 20 games on Steam like this everyday" and would discourage me very bad. I was reading something and realized maybe just a small fraction of people are like this, maybe there are much more people like me (and you) who don't like "new" things but care [enough] for good gameplay [to pay]. And that is my problem. I'm doing this full time and I'm not very young and I need money. Not a lot, don't even want to be a big hit indie [like they are offering it for free, haha], I just want to be able to do what I do just to get some money and positive feedbacks to be able to fight off these negativities and hopefully make some buck for the next one(s). That's why I'm concerned for player feedback. [Against the general advice] I'm very much against making games for the audience and for making something that I want to play, I still play one of my games from 2012 and love it, even if it's 20 minutes. This is that game: If you look at the Steam page, not much people played it but the ones did, really liked it and it has no innovation at all. It's main problem is apparently that it doesn't show it's gameplay from videos/pictures. I like to make it's sequel but I'm at such low energy that I can't take making another game and seeing all those negative feedbacks I did get on Greenlight (and the mobile games I did, casual arcade ones, ask me for links, might seem like spam if I do) that's why I'm asking you guys. I like to add rougelike elements to it's sequel but I think it will instantly make it a much bigger projects, even though I did make 2 algorithms to generate levels. *Not super new and/or innovative, but I like their results.) But I'm wondering if I need to make the leap when I can make another Rot Gut. Risk is rewards but is it "right thing to do"? I guess no one knows but there should be measures and considerations.
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test84
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« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2017, 04:24:16 AM » |
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IMO:
Get an understanding of the genre before anything else. Play all the classics and finely analyze them. Understand why they were and are great. Find out what you like, and why you like it.
Then come up with something that's "you".
I've made a game in the genre, see the above, I just need to know where to go next. Specially if I need to do anything "new" or not.
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test84
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« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2017, 04:24:41 AM » |
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Why not take the Team Ico approach?
Instead of adding features, how about removing them?
Would you please elaborate more?
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test84
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« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2017, 04:26:38 AM » |
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IMO to make it appearl to people to buy the game first thing to do is give it best graphic you possibly can (and hope it's look great for the mass), since it's first thing people can experiance even before they buy the game normally when I go to steam I don't even bother to check game feature if it screenshot/trailer didn't catch my attention.
for game mechanic maybe you just try to reuse exist mechanic from another game and elevate those mechanic to keep it fresh but since we will never know which kind of mechanic people would love in such kind of game maybe the best way is just make what you think it cool but also try to make thos mechanic simple and easy to understand.
and since it's plateformer character control should be tight give player feel like their alway character total in control, I've play the game like warframe and truly while their game design around grinding over and over but just it character control alone make me enjoy enough.
another idea is instead of focus on mechanic you might consider to attracts player with story telling since it's can keep player to pay attention to the game even your game didn't offer any new mechanic.
sorry for my bad english
Thanks, please read my replies in above.
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Squire Grooktook
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« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2017, 09:45:06 AM » |
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IMO:
Get an understanding of the genre before anything else. Play all the classics and finely analyze them. Understand why they were and are great. Find out what you like, and why you like it.
Then come up with something that's "you".
I've made a game in the genre, see the above, I just need to know where to go next. Specially if I need to do anything "new" or not. Yeah, that was just general opinion to anyone, not necessarily you. Sorry, I did not mean to be condescending. I think it depends on the game itself: a game that's in need of refinement or improvement can benefit from a sequel that irons out its rough areas. Otherwise, if you're already happy with it, perhaps it would be better to try a new mechanical "gimmick" and do something different? I think there's still a large number of weapon ideas and mechanical gimmicks that are under-used in sidescrollers. Grappling Hooks (can never have too many), possession, mid-air-dashing, etc. so I think there's still room for subtle innovation and uniqueness. But like I said, depends on if you're happy with what you've got or not. If you're making the game with yourself in mind, as you said above, then what matters most is your own passion and enthusiasm for the mechanics and playstyle you've chosen.
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« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 10:13:22 AM by Squire Grooktook »
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-Ross
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« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2017, 12:33:29 PM » |
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I think you're taking those, "I see 20 of these every day" comments the wrong way. If they're saying that after skimming through a Greenlight page then they're probably reacting against your graphics, (and to a lesser extent, audio), not the core gameplay concept. Sidescrollers with mediocre pixel art and retro music are pretty much the most overdone thing there is these days. It's unfortunate that graphics are such a big deal, but what can you do. If you want to make a classic run-and-gun, go for it. Also, as you work on it you may find some part of it that you want to focus on, which will differentiate it from similar games. There's plenty of room to develop.
[Edit] "Mediocre" sounds really insulting, but I just meant it's not spectacular like Ori, Hollow Knight, Hyper Light Drifter, etc., for which the art generated a lot of interest on its own.
The argument for innovation is pretty bogus in my opinion. I'd be willing to bet innovation is a reason for failure more often than it's a reason for success. 90% of AAA games don't innovate at all. And take Hollow Knight for example, it didn't have any innovations (aside from graphics maybe), and it made at least a couple million dollars. It's just a solid game.
Yeah, Abuse is sweet. Maybe I'm biased by nostalgia, I haven't played it in ages, but I remember it being awesome. If you can make a game equal to Abuse then please do!
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« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 05:45:40 PM by -Ross »
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Fun Infused Games
Level 1
Games so good you could hang your hat on them.
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« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2017, 09:38:24 AM » |
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I happen to be doing the same kind of retro run and gun game myself (I've got a lot of screens and videos in the dev log in my signature if you want to check it out).
One thing I have been doing is playing a lot of other games in this style and asking myself questions like: 1. What is this game doing better than my game? 2. What is this game doing differently than my game or what can I be doing differently than this game? 3. Why is this game fun (or not) and can I take ideas from that to make my own game better? 4. How easy or hard is this game compared to mine (being someone that is particularly good at this genre makes it sometimes difficult to judge just how hard my game is to actual gamers).
I've also been looking at a lot of presentation and animation aspects to ensure my game has the visual flair some of the popular titles in this genre do too.
Also a good exercise is trying to do an elevator pitch for your game... it might seem odd, but when you stop and try and think how you can boil down and explain your game in 2-3 sentences quickly, you can realize if what you're trying to do is in any way exciting. If you can't make an exciting pitch, then you need to work on more exciting elements to your game idea first.
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Fun Infused Games
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Games so good you could hang your hat on them.
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« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2017, 09:41:46 AM » |
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Also this video, while not specific to 2D run and game games, has so much that can improve a 2D run and game game. HIGHLY recommend watching it and implementing many of these.
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ydobemos
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« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2017, 11:51:21 PM » |
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Also this video, while not specific to 2D run and game games, has so much that can improve a 2D run and game game. HIGHLY recommend watching it and implementing many of these.
Heh, was just coming here to recommend that video as well. He may not be the best (or most charismatic) speaker, but there are some good points there. Watching Rot Gut gameplay footage it seems like test84 may have watched this already or just arrived at some of those ideas by himself. Either way, some useful advice there. Speaking of the gameplay footage - it seems like a decently competent platform shooter, but the dark look may be off putting to many potential players, I suspect. Personally I'm not too fond of dark games in general - purely because I don't want to be forced to play in the evening or in darkness to actually see what's happening. Of course you have to stay true to your vision to an extent - if it's a noir setting... well, it's going to be dark and so on... but perhaps you could give a base tint to the areas, like colored lighting to spruce it up a little. Further playing on that darkness theme perhaps add shadow areas where you can, for example, blend into the darkness by holding up or such and enemies pass you by - not original, it's been done before, but could spruce up the gameplay, add backstabs or such so you can emerge from the shadows and instantly kill them. Then have dudes with lights etc.
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PanopticPixel
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« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2017, 11:22:44 AM » |
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If your gameplay/mechanics have good reviews try to polish the rest of the game around that. Maybe add parallax backgrounds to give your game a feel of depth. Depending on the engine you're using you can either script it in or use the depth of a scene to achieve this (z). Add smoothing to your camera if it isn't already there. Try adding in small improvements and wait on feedback. You'll get negative reviews, sometimes a lot more negative than good but try to take it all with a bit of salt because you can use all the opinions to improve on your game.
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Peace Soft
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« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2017, 09:47:34 PM » |
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What jumps out at me in the Rot Gut trailer is that there's a very high amount of leeway for player error, and sometimes no way I can see to avoid it. Most of the steam reviews are positive, but then they say they blew through it in less than an hour with no difficulty. So a higher skill ceiling would engage people more, I think. Not a higher starting difficulty, but just something left to engage me as a player after I've seen how you arranged the furniture, you know? Cave Story did this really well. Any roguelike you've heard of does this well, too. David Foster Wallace explained how tennis does this, and it's got one level and no graphics. The way he talks about the opponent he could be talking about action game AI. The feel and graphics are solid and even stylish; good work there. You have the building blocks of an excellent game already, it's just a matter of what you do with em. Good luck!
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LyricalReverie
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« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2017, 02:51:20 PM » |
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Why not take the Team Ico approach?
Instead of adding features, how about removing them?
Agreed. Less is more. Games nowadays, not all of them but most, have far too many features, too much stuff that do nothing to strengthen the core concept of a game. My advice is to figure out what is the most important thing about your game and focus on it. Watch Mark Brown's video on Team Ico's approach to game design, by the way. It is fantastic.
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