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[Cobralad]

yes, but it also sucks because people get the wrong stuff out of them and make bad games

[Photon]

yes, but it also sucks because people get the wrong stuff out of them and make bad games

Like I mentioned before, its kinda like people think: "Super Metroid has lots of cool upgrades. If I make a game with lots of cool upgrades, it'll be just like Super Metroid."

[s0]

So bad clones means the original games shouldn't be mentioned in a design discussion? dum

(btw i dislike pretty much all 8bit era platformers so not like i have any skin in the game lol)

[quantumpotato]

I've been spending a lot more time on these forums over the past 2 months, and it seems to me like I can't bat an eye lash before seeing a new metroidvania pop up. What was the game that sparked this frenzy? Presently I can say I get at least 20% less interested off the bat is I see the term metroidvania in a game. I guess I like fun games but in general the story telling these days is what pulls me in considering many things that can be done in current gaming has been done, and I haven't necessarily known them to be renowned for their storytelling!

Ok, rant time.

I'm kind of sick of seeing Metroidvanias on Tigs for over a decade now. Most of them are not interesting looking IMO.
There are a couple action platformer games on here with interesting-ish looking combat, and one about rewinding time that sounds promising.

I saw Axiom Verge at Indiecade a few years ago and said "uh, that looks just like Super Metroid..".. some guy picked up the controller and spent about 3 minutes - no joking - just pressing the jump button and commenting to his friend "wow! the jump, the controls, it's so good! Feels great!" and I'm shaking my head thinking damn dude, 2d platformer physics done yet-again

I never got too into Super Metroid but I liked the first one a lot. Maybe because I played it when I was younger, and it seemed more mysterious? I did enjoy Metroid Prime though (more streamlined) than SM though).

The very-obvious gating in metroidvanias bugs me. "You can't go here.. you need the super jump boots!" etc. It feels so transparent. I think this is why a lot of players like these games - I see "revisiting the same areas with new powers" in 9/10 positive reviews of metroidvanias but in my experience this feels like contrived length extension. Maybe I just haven't played "the really good ones" (haven't played SOTN). I think indie games are so much richer than metroidvania and I'd like to see more new concepts than metroidvanias unless you're doing something just amazing with them (time travel, better combat come to mind)

[Raptor85]

Interestingly, super metroid and castlevania sotn are pretty notable for metroidvania type games for NOT fitting into the "item gating" scheme as much (castlevania a little less so as you do actually need form of mist and the glasses when playing as alucard for the best ending). Both have fairly advanced movement available from the start of the game that while hard to master, isn't required to progress and the majority of players forget about (in metroid, for instance, there's a BUNCH of varieties of shinespark, if you get the speed booster, plus wall jumping, bomb jumping, etc, and that only includes the INTENDED movement methods not even getting into the glitches like the bluesuit). It's actually completely possible to beat the game glitchless without picking up over 90% of the items (you pretty much need either varia suit or a bunch of energy tanks to do norfair). As a matter of fact, my first time playing through super metroid...i MISSED the high jump boots and even accidently wandered into maridia early. (from the back enterence you can actually clear the zone without the gravity suit)

What i don't like about a lot of more modern metroidvania type games, what makes most of them boring to me,...is they restrict movement so much at the beginning of the game and go to GREAT LENGTHS to make the game progress linearly though the items you get, while the SNES/PS1 era metroidvanias were quite a bit more open in the order you do things. Half the fun was exploring and finding areas WAY HARDER than you should be in early then trying to get through it anyways

[eyeliner]

Half the fun was exploring and finding areas WAY HARDER than you should be in early then trying to get through it anyways

There you have it. Nowadays that gameplay element is just slapped in the game's description and is presented as something exciting.
Metroidvanias are games that need to click with you so you can put up with the sometimes necessary backtracking, and most of the times, in gamestoday, that is just used to addtime to the game counter, so you can say you spend a bunch of hours going back and forth...

[quantumpotato]

Interestingly, super metroid and castlevania sotn are pretty notable for metroidvania type games for NOT fitting into the "item gating" scheme as much (castlevania a little less so as you do actually need form of mist and the glasses when playing as alucard for the best ending). Both have fairly advanced movement available from the start of the game that while hard to master, isn't required to progress and the majority of players forget about (in metroid, for instance, there's a BUNCH of varieties of shinespark, if you get the speed booster, plus wall jumping, bomb jumping, etc, and that only includes the INTENDED movement methods not even getting into the glitches like the bluesuit). It's actually completely possible to beat the game glitchless without picking up over 90% of the items (you pretty much need either varia suit or a bunch of energy tanks to do norfair). As a matter of fact, my first time playing through super metroid...i MISSED the high jump boots and even accidently wandered into maridia early. (from the back enterence you can actually clear the zone without the gravity suit)

What i don't like about a lot of more modern metroidvania type games, what makes most of them boring to me,...is they restrict movement so much at the beginning of the game and go to GREAT LENGTHS to make the game progress linearly though the items you get, while the SNES/PS1 era metroidvanias were quite a bit more open in the order you do things. Half the fun was exploring and finding areas WAY HARDER than you should be in early then trying to get through it anyways

Interesting, thanks for pointing that out. I may try SOTN sometime.

Metroid Prime originally had a few "sequence breaks" with bomb jumps that devs took out (bizzare) in later versions.

I had no idea about shine sparking. I remember super jumping when I played but didn't think to store it for later. Maybe I should retry this game now with more gaming experience.

[s0]

Both have fairly advanced movement available from the start of the game that while hard to master, isn't required to progress and the majority of players forget about (in metroid, for instance, there's a BUNCH of varieties of shinespark, if you get the speed booster, plus wall jumping, bomb jumping, etc, and that only includes the INTENDED movement methods not even getting into the glitches like the bluesuit). It's actually completely possible to beat the game glitchless without picking up over 90% of the items (you pretty much need either varia suit or a bunch of energy tanks to do norfair).

yep

[Photon]

Both have fairly advanced movement available from the start of the game that while hard to master, isn't required to progress and the majority of players forget about (in metroid, for instance, there's a BUNCH of varieties of shinespark, if you get the speed booster, plus wall jumping, bomb jumping, etc, and that only includes the INTENDED movement methods not even getting into the glitches like the bluesuit). It's actually completely possible to beat the game glitchless without picking up over 90% of the items (you pretty much need either varia suit or a bunch of energy tanks to do norfair).

I remember being so enamored with the shinespark when I first figured it out. I remember going to the big open area where your spaceship is and just shinesparking to different places to see if I could find anything (spoiler: I did.) I remember trying to use even the slimmest of running areas as an opportunity to use it.

I don't think I really appreciated it all that much back then. I never really looked into all the advanced shinesparking techniques either. I think it speaks volumes to just how engaging the game is without all the "advanced" techniques (I didn't think the exploring was egregious at all, and I still think the game is a textbook example of how to do it.)

However, there's one thing I'd like to put out there: why did they put a save station right before the wall-jump "tutorial?" In my youth I couldn't figure out what I was supposed to do and was stuck in a non-mandatory part of the game. I remember trying to create platforms out of enemies one room over to--guess what?--shinespark up the shaft... which hilariously enough, probably just proves my previous point further.

[The Armorman]

completely disgusted

[quantumpotato]

it's actually interesting that someone considers souls enemies to be "unpredictable" because the deterministic ("stupid") AI is arguably a trademark of the series and exploiting it is part of the fun.

talks about that.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i still like them, but i prefer the lower key ones. the ones like axiom verge are too polished, if you only play those i can see how you might not like them. you need to play the deeper underground indie metroidvanias to appreciate how varied they can be

that said, i still prefer zeldalikes (which are basically -- top-down metroidvanias). but fewer people make those. a new game like anodyne for instance i'd take over any metroidvania.

[s0]

i kickstarted la mulana 2

also hi rinku

[quantumpotato]

i still like them, but i prefer the lower key ones. the ones like axiom verge are too polished, if you only play those i can see how you might not like them. you need to play the deeper underground indie metroidvanias to appreciate how varied they can be

that said, i still prefer zeldalikes (which are basically -- top-down metroidvanias). but fewer people make those. a new game like anodyne for instance i'd take over any metroidvania.

"Too polished" - too easy to play?

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

no, it's more like -- everything is too polished. it feels too expected. you never feel as if you are discovering a way to play the game that the developer didn't anticipate. it feels like your exploration is planned out, or guided, by the developer, rather than being an organic part of your own play style. it also feels like very boss has an expected way to defeat them, a way that you are expected to discover. so it's not that it's too easy -- you can also have very polished difficult games -- it's that things are less rough around the edges, everything is expected and intended, nothing feels like your own personal doing.

[rachtok]

Hi guys,

I'm a bit late on that topic but the conversation was very interesting, just wanted to share my thoughts. In the past decades, a lot a people dove in the game development and tried to begin simple, a 2D platformer is simple but maybe a little bit too simple. The genre is pretty much the emblem of two generation of console. The next move is to think : "how can I enhance the formula", in a 2D platformer, there is not a million of options, so the metroidvania genre (which I prefer to call Casteloid) is the perfect way to improve a platformer without adding complicated fighting mechanics (or anything else which could really make a platformer stand out of the crowd).
I think the numerous clones of clones of metroidvania are made for an obvious reason, the simplicity. I'm not saying it's easy to make, good metroidvania are rare enough to prove how much difficult is it to make one, but simplicity in the game design process.

[baconman]

It's been mixed. Surprisingly, the more minimalist ones have stuck with me most - Paradox Lost (from Retro Game Crunch), Momodora II, and now Celeste.

I DO think there's a notch or two missing in a lot of these. See... Super Metroid and SotN give the players abilities and a natural progression through the game - and ways around it somewhat, once you know what you're doing - but their maps also seem geared to explore the "possibility space" within the abilities, not just using them as keyholes. The minimalist Metroidvanias seem to capture that spirit more than the more meticulous ones.

That said? I do like it. I liked Metroid games and having fifty of them does not seem unappealing.