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l0bster
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« on: September 03, 2017, 04:43:52 AM »

Can anyone explain me, what is good about sonic mania, or any sonic game from a game design perspective.
I never liked sonic games, even though i had a Sega with sonic 2 as a child, but i thought i will give Sonic Mania a try. I just don't understand what is good about the game from a game design perspective. You are always running too fast to actually see the hazards in front of you, so you inevitably will bump into spikes and it takes multiple attempts to finish a level flawlessly. And even if you pull off some cool tricks, then it's mostly because some level elements, like trampolines are placed in a perfect position, so that Sonic will make those jumps almost automatically.

I honestly never understood, how people can even compare these games to the Mario titles. I feel like, the only reason why they get compared is because they are both mascots from 2 competitors.
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Schoq
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« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2017, 05:53:55 AM »

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l0bster
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« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2017, 08:24:12 AM »

 Gentleman oh, yeah, i forgot
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Capntastic
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« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2017, 09:51:54 AM »

I got it and I am enjoying it solely for being a fun Sonic game with new weird stuff and neat music
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Cobralad
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« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2017, 10:02:21 AM »

didnt play it, but i like games that are flawed, i like games that are different, i like games that dont feel "designed".
osession with streamlining, minimalism, genius problem solvers personality cult... A graveyard of tightly designed multiplayer games lies before you.
sonic gonna run and gonna be stopped by obstacles, but he wont be stopped by the end of deliberate progression loop, numerics of rings wont matter, he jump and breaks the machine that turns our brain into robot revenue slave, he runs for rebellion and mobius, we run with him, he runs for us
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Superb Joe
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« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2017, 11:06:28 AM »

unbroken speed is a reward for good play, which you can achieve by learning but also have an unspoken system of higher, faster, riskier routes, or lower, slower, less risky routes. you are given the opportunity to learn the obstacles because theres an abundant resource that stops you dying almost everywhere. and there's lots of set pieces to break things up. i learned this at 5 years old. if you dont like it, well, maybe youre not 5 years old anymore.
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s0
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« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2017, 12:47:29 PM »

Sonic, a hog.
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Superb Joe
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« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2017, 01:36:06 PM »

"sonic mania" to replace "autism spectrum disorder" in DSM VI
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gimymblert
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« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2017, 06:23:22 PM »

Well I can, also sonic is the only game I know that sprung a long form design community just about studying how to make good sonic level ... You always hear them whenever there is a new sonic game speeking about physics, slopes, momentum, etc and ripping appart level design ...

They tend to get drown out by the OC fanboy though in the perception of outsider. That's why they have strict member filtering on their various forum (like ssrg or sonic retro) in order to keep discussion sane and rational. ALL the member of the sonic mania come from sonic retro, one of these design study forum.

Here is a typical post that focus on design:
http://sonicresearch.org/community/index.php?threads/trees-terrible-guide-to-sonic-level-design.4797/
When I'm telling you they are obsessive about level design ...
http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=13538


But the most important thing is that sonic are based on a different paradigm than typical navigation game, most game are stop and go, moving is just a way to go from one challenge to another, generally with timing base challenge. Sonic is more about parkour, I like to draw similarity with mario 64 because of that, but they implement similar fundamental and very opposite way (also in mario 64, it's mostly accidental to the control rather than the core of the game). The game is about seeing stuff nd making mental note for much later, often the game will send you on a speed path and you will see 2 to 3 alternate path or hint of other routes flashing away, you also should trust the level, the game often send you just pixel away of danger ... if you do nothing, or else just reacting will send you to said danger, everything is timed to be grazing spectacle most of the time, when you face actual danger, the game slow you down are attract your attention to the danger, in mania specifically, you have room designed to teach quirks of gamedesign. On top of that the game is rather lenient, unlike mario you have almost infinite health with the ring system, which allows for experimentation, and the game reward you for holding ring with special stages and lifes. Also another lenient mechanics is simply the roll, roll makes you invincible to most enemy (expect projectile, saw and spike) and uncap speed, most beginner simply don't roll.

I would say the difference between sonic and other platformer/navigation game, is the same between banjo kazooie and mario 64, they look superficially similar but the core is very different, banjo kazooie is stop and go with generally one way to complete the challenge, movement are instrumental, mario 64 is entirely based on movement, and your skills with it change the way of approaching them as it allows for massive improvisation. And sonic is the same, your ability to read and take advantage of the level with movement is more the core that navigating challenge to challenge, which the game enforce almost every time. Other platformer rely on "timing" to build challenge, sonic rely on planning and reading to take advantage of the situation, the whole is game is about reading through the sensory overload without putting you in actual harm like other game.

Also mania still has roots on hardcore gaming past, it's lenient but it doesn't spell everything out for you, you still have to figure out the core of the game by yourself (ie it doesn't tells you what ring are for in the emerald bonus stage, you just a counter ticking down and ring filling it up if you PAY attention). The game encourage smartly experimentation with all sorts of tells and mechanics, modern game have trained player to be spoonfed and be afraid of experimenting by killing you whenever you don't do what the designer want, they are themselves afraid of experimenting with gameplay, so we have the same way to traverse level and player cry innovation when a slight inconsequential change happen, but is actually coming back from obscure 16 bit games.

It does have flaws, the crushing physics need a revision and the boss are not as readable as they should (not a problem for me).

"sonic mania" to replace "autism spectrum disorder" in DSM VI
Wait till you meet a hardcore Typigraph, that's also the only way to become doctor with all the stuff you must use rot learning to not kill people, that's why the thicker glasses make the best student that can stay and learn all the minutes muscle everywhere on the body and all sorts of weirdly named cells and organ. I can't even remember the simplified anatomy for artist, I use to have a life when I was loosely advise to learn it.
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Türbo Bröther
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« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2017, 06:27:23 PM »

Should I get this Sonic game or wait for the one that allows you to make your own horrifying characters?
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gimymblert
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« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2017, 07:18:11 PM »

more design
http://sonicjam.wikidot.com/nsssp:index
http://soniczone0.com/games/sonic2/emeraldhill/
http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=28302
http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=31975&st=0&p=759250&#entry759250

old discussion about sonic level design in these forums
https://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=19116.20





Should I get this Sonic game or wait for the one that allows you to make your own horrifying characters?



« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 12:34:57 AM by gimymblert » Logged

Superb Joe
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« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2017, 01:37:52 AM »

Wait till you meet a hardcore Typigraph, that's also the only way to become doctor with all the stuff you must use rot learning to not kill people, that's why the thicker glasses make the best student that can stay and learn all the minutes muscle everywhere on the body and all sorts of weirdly named cells and organ. I can't even remember the simplified anatomy for artist, I use to have a life when I was loosely advise to learn it.

my man i got no idea what you're saying, but i use all my rote learning skills to remember web site URLs. I've never used a bookmark or subscribed to a you tube channel ever; I am insane
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Capntastic
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« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2017, 05:10:50 AM »

I used to do that but I think bookmarks can be helpful
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gimymblert
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« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2017, 09:12:07 PM »

Wait till you meet a hardcore Typigraph, that's also the only way to become doctor with all the stuff you must use rot learning to not kill people, that's why the thicker glasses make the best student that can stay and learn all the minutes muscle everywhere on the body and all sorts of weirdly named cells and organ. I can't even remember the simplified anatomy for artist, I use to have a life when I was loosely advise to learn it.

my man i got no idea what you're saying,

The THICCest glasses is always half full
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Superb Joe
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« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2017, 02:24:55 AM »

I used to do that but I think bookmarks can be helpful
I think they definitely are but I inappropriately shun everything that gives convenience with computers for no reason, which is an inextricable part of my extreme genius
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gimymblert
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« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2017, 03:00:49 PM »




Sonic the Hedgehog Retrospective
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s0
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« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2017, 09:35:41 AM »

it's cool that the sager genesis fans are now beeing pandered to and all, but i wish sonic would return to his true classic roots
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Superb Joe
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« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2017, 11:27:44 AM »

sonic should return to his roots of getting run over and killed by farming equipment and they should publish streets of rage remake
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s0
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« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2017, 03:19:10 AM »



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gimymblert
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« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2017, 11:45:48 AM »

Wrong thread
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1409607
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