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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperDesignA ludologically constructed conversation game
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RadLab
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« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2009, 02:42:52 PM »

Now that I think about it, MMORPGs, on roleplay servers, can be conversation based and ludic! Politics, mercantilism, gossiping, etc...

Unless you are aiming at other people than the roleplayers' community or at making an offline game, I believe this is the solution. I had countless hours of fun roleplaying and making my character evolve socially.
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Captain_404
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« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2009, 03:10:13 PM »

I've only glanced over this thread so far, but I've got a fairly simple idea for a game about argument. I don't think I'd ever actually make it, but I might as well throw it out here for discussion's sake.

So, the game would revolve around 'viewpoints,' which would be sort of like a hexadecimal index of the player's ideology. Instead of having a simple good/bad structure, each player would have three pillars to their view (those views being Red, Green and Blue Roll Eyes). These would not be exclusive from each other either.

A good/bad structure indicates that when the good variable increases, the bad decreases; essentially leaving any given player with the ability to only carry a single view at any time. In an RGB system, players could believe in only red, or only red and blue, or all three colors at once, or even nothing at all. The views are not mutually exclusive.

Now, the arguments you could use would reflect your views. Say if you believed only in green (0x00FF00), you could use these arguments

-Green is true (green++)
-Red is false (red--)
-Blue is false (blue--)

Whereas is you believed in everything (0xFFFFFF), you could use only these:

-Green is true
-Red is true
-Blue is true

And believing in nothing (0x000000) would give you

-Green is false
-Red is false
-Blue is false

The game would be multiplayer, with a battle system similar to a turn-based rpg. You'd be set in a room with a certain number of other people, and every round you'd choose a player to set an argument against and an argument to set against them. Once you 'fire' the argument at them, their views would be affected accordingly. You could even fire an argument at yourself if you felt the need.


Now, at a certain point in the round, the attacks evolve a step. Players are allowed to combine multiple attacks into one using a 'because' clause.

Say I believe 0xFF0000 giving me the attacks red is true, green is false, and blue is false. I can now combine two of these attacks into one:

________ because ________

Red is true because green is false.

These would be more effective, as they have the ability to change multiple view of other players at once. However, they could be defended against. If someone used a R is T because B is F on me, I could attack the base of that argument: B is F by a counter argument: B is T (if I can use that argument).

Later on in the game, perhaps the attack could evolve even more to allow for three slots (_____ because _______ & _______  or ______ & ______ because ______) or perhaps counter arguments could evolve to have two slots. The possibilities really start explode from there.


I guess winners could be determined by who makes the most conversions (changing a player's stats so that their argument switches from X is T to X is F) over a given amount of turns.

Thoughts? Questions? Strongly worded complaints?
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Anthony Flack
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« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2009, 06:08:34 PM »

It would probably be more interesting if, rather than accessing the variables directly, you used more relative statements like "Green is like red", or "blue is unique". Maybe you could see if the other characters agree or disagree?
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Anthony Flack
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« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2009, 06:13:50 PM »

Perhaps your statements would effect the other characters' "views", but would also colour their map of what they thought your "views" were, and likewise you would judge them on their statements. Maybe you have to try to avoid contradicting yourself, or something? Perhaps the objective would be to try to reach consensus? Hmm.

Also, I'm picturing this game being parsed into conversation as an argument about which colour is the best, which could be quite funny.
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Anthony Flack
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« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2009, 06:31:18 PM »

Triple post combo!

What if it was parsed into the form of a heated argument about what colour is best, presented as badly worded, immature posts on a youtube comment thread? People always make jokes about how those people sound like badly-programmed troll-bots. A game that used the language of pointless internet argument would make a good cover for parser limitations.
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Captain_404
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« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2009, 06:45:20 PM »

It would probably be more interesting if, rather than accessing the variables directly, you used more relative statements like "Green is like red", or "blue is unique". Maybe you could see if the other characters agree or disagree?

Interesting idea. I think it could be used either as a way to see what the other people believe or as a sort of underhanded attack. In arguing that blue is like red, they might raise their red level is their blue level is high or drop it otherwise, it all depends on their own stats. I can see it as a way to raise a certain stat of theirs if you don't have a way to attack it directly.

Quote
Perhaps your statements would effect the other characters' "views", but would also colour their map of what they thought your "views" were, and likewise you would judge them on their statements. Maybe you have to try to avoid contradicting yourself, or something? Perhaps the objective would be to try to reach consensus? Hmm.

Also, I'm picturing this game being parsed into conversation as an argument about which colour is the best, which could be quite funny.

I do wonder how "consensus" would be reached. Would the players all have to manually say that they think they are in consensus with these certain players, or would the computer decide when everyone agrees? It could be a lot more interesting if you let the players decide for themselves. Maybe everyone is working towards having the same beliefs at the end, and once the round ends, they're evaluated for how well they all match. Bonus points to you if the views are closer to what you started out with than what they started out with.

Heh, now you've got me imagining some league of foreign dignitaries threatening to go nuclear if you don't agree with them that red is better than blue.

Triple post combo!

What if it was parsed into the form of a heated argument about what colour is best, presented as badly worded, immature posts on a youtube comment thread? People always make jokes about how those people sound like badly-programmed troll-bots. A game that used the language of pointless internet argument would make a good cover for parser limitations.

Or... that. Maybe both? Trolls claiming to be foreign dignitaries threatening to go nuclear over a youtube video because the video maintained that blue was better than red? I like it.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 06:48:35 PM by Captain_404 » Logged
Anthony Flack
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« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2009, 07:06:54 PM »

I can imagine a game that looks like a Youtube window, and it starts playing a short webcam clip of some random person making some statement that is quite clearly a matter of pure, subjective opinion.

Underneath the the video, a flamewar has started in the comments section. Time to go on the internet and talk some smack! (There's another feedback element in there - youtube comments are rated).
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lankoski
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« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2009, 08:57:27 PM »

Spun off from the front page discussion - I wonder if it actually would be possible to create a conversation-based game that was designed to be ludologically satisfying? I can't think of a less arsey way of saying that, but what I mean is basically this: You create a set of rules, a system of opposing forces, that creates a state of complexity which the player can influence in meaningful ways with their choices. You are working towards a win condition and there is at least one other force pushing you back into a fail state. The game would be different each time you play, and it would have to be balanced enough that the choices you made would be meaningful. I used chess as an example. You know, a GAME game. And it should be a proper good one, without any obvious strategic exploits.

I think it should be possible.

We reached that way in Lies and Seductions (http://www.liesandseductions.com/). The main mechanics in the game is conversation, but also NPCs state is changed (what is their opinion of the player character) based on some actions and dialogue lines they see or hear.

In Lies and Seductions it has been good to have more dialogue to get the dialogue flow to reflect the game state with more nuances and variation.
A more detailed description about the core mechanics on my blog (http://mlab.taik.fi/~plankosk/blog/?p=264)
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