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[gimymblert]

Metroid have far fewer games, it's hard to tell it died nearly after 3 peaks (the retro 2d peaks with  super, long after the handheld peak with only fusion (zero remake is a fusion) but as already concerning stuff, and the 3d peak with prime with conerning stuff in prime 2 and jumping shark in prime 3 and metroid sonic 2k6).

Someday fan will make a corrected version of other M to retcon all stupidity?

[The Armorman]

controlling samus in super metroid is akin to controlling a woman who is part tank. controlling samus in samus returns is controlling a character in a metroid / naruto fanfic.

[J-Snake]

Potent movement-mechanics which enable great depth in environmental traversal (and combat) involve a hybrid solution. You have properties of both, a tank and an elite acrobatic athlete. I created plenty of prototypes exploring this subject in the past. I certainly framed my mind how to go about it when I decide to make a metroid-like sidescroller. The question only is, how much awesomeness can the player take?

[JobLeonard]

controlling samus in super metroid is akin to controlling a woman who is part tank. controlling samus in samus returns is controlling a character in a metroid / naruto fanfic.

I don't understand what either of these two sentences are trying to say

[ProgramGamer]

Samus in super Metroid is clunky due to the limitations of the controls. Several important actions require multiple button presses to perform and movement feels very weird if you're not used to it. Samus if also just slow as all heck if you're not running.

Samus in Metroid Returns is much more agile and fast. This allows movement to flow much more easily, but takes away some of the depth out of traversing the levels.

I think that's the point he was trying to make.

[The Armorman]

yes but the control scheme and physics are better in super Metroid and suit things in a much more appropriate way

[Glyph]

I'm not sure that I'm a fan of free-aim but in SM the L/R aiming scheme was just terrible, select to cycle equipment was also terrible, and morph ball in both games is just equally bad... so I don't really see your point regarding controls.

[J-Snake]

He is just fanboying pretty much. Not only are the SM controls bad, also the movement mechanics are an assembled mess. Why is it still so hard to get some basics right, like locking the aim with left shoulder button and locking position with right shoulder button?

[JobLeonard]

@Armorman: Ah. Well, I suspect the source of frustrations is more likely your muscle memory of Super Metroid that is interfering with the newer control schemes.

I started out with Prime, then got Fusion and Zero Mission, and only after tried out Super Metroid on an emulator, with a control pad. Like others noted, Super Metroid felt super-clunky by comparison.

[The Armorman]

There are no frustrations with Samus Returns control scheme. It is like playing a dumb game for children who want everything turned over and given to them. I understand the source of confusion - it can be hard to accept that new game is bad. But truth is....new game is bad.


I understand j-snake is an "Expert" on Super Metroid controls from wanting to turn the game into a multiplayer arena shooter. That's not the point. It was never the point - there is a moratorium on coin analogies from this point on.



Super Metroid is a follow-up to two games about exploring an alien planet. If you are not familiar with it: wow! why are you reading this thread. You have spent a long time alone and you have probably never made anyone in life truly happy...or truly horny.

Zebes has intentionally less gravity than most platformers that were its contemporaries, and Samus has an expanded arsenal of movement options to navigate the planet. Samus' jumps are long and slow and accrue speed on long journeys as she falls back towards the ground.
in "slang" as the teens call it, Samus has a lot of "Hang Time" even without the space jump ability. A lot of the areas the player explores in Super Metroid take advantage of this. The wide open expanses give space for Samus to land on or avoid Platforms. Her general slowness make things like the wall-jump and the mockball become easier over time as the player learns the physics of the game.

Here's what I think:RE:The Combat Mechanics in Super Metroid. My idea is that you want a different game than Super Metroid is and ever intended to be. Samus wears a weaponized Space Suit and therefore the game should fairly balance combat and exploration as if most of the game wasn't spent as a one foot tall metallic ball.

Super Metroid has greatly refined controls that given its scope and scale, work very well on the controller they were designed for which is both small and lacking in extra ways to give inputs. Ideally the players hands rest with fingers outstretched on the L and R buttons. A cursory look in the options menu reveals the only thing that might be changed is the directions Samus points her gun before beginning every new game.


If you REALLY wanna talk about Super Metroid and Metroid Fusion though it's kind of big thing to note that Metroid Fusion kind of relies heavily on the player having foreknowledge of Super Metroid.
Fusion sets the player up expecting to get regular heavy powersuit with Samus tank like movements and relatively impenetrable defenses from Super Metroid and then the player has to deal with this:



A suit that has its own physics and heaviness separate from the traditional power suit that in some ways is more precise and flexible. Yet in others it also is thinner and implies a sort of vulnerability: it is the only suit before Samus could be played in her Zero Suit that you can tell her gender from just by looking at it.

This is probably intentional because Horror movies and Games have for a long time relied on tropes of feminine vulnerability to tell stories and set-up scares. Fusion relies on some of that same philosophy by making the antagonist the SA-X. Slow, heavy and impenetrable are the characteristics of the previous suit. It should be noted that the standard missiles the player has are basically completely useless against the SA-X.

What I do wonder if the idea to give Samus a ledge grab was due to the technical limitations of the SNES or if it was a design philosophy one. Considering the bulkiness of the original design (before the geniuses at fucking Mercury Steam gave Samus level 60 World of Warcraft Raid Armor Paulrons) It makes sense to me that giving Samus a slimmer suit opened up her movement options in new ways.

Retroactively another gripe with Samus Returns is the inclusion of the ledge-grab and the reduction of the wall-jump to being easier to do. There is no point to including both when the levels only take advantage of the ledge grab and how relatively quickly the player gets the Space Jump (forty minutes my time zone)

[gimymblert]

The other problem is that people want to steer the game into run and gun territory in a game where you need to be deliberate in paying attention to the environment. Being able to fast travel like in gunstar heroes mean you pay more attention to shooting and enemy that positioning yourself in the environment, it's more reflex and less observation. That's why the radar thing in MR is bad too, at least a reveal beam force you to point and pay attention at element one by one (in a new zone), instead of directing yourself from a mini map reveal. Mechanically both are the same (they reveal hidden stuff) but you don't process it the same way, and that's metrodi in a nutshell, the control put you into the same situation as Samus, alien environment you slowly conquer by learning about it instead of consuming like a theme park ride, to become intimately close to it. Running and gunning on the other side make the environment just a backdrop to traverse. And that's MR really, a theme park game, "we know you know about metroid, here are some metroidy thing" like remixing old music, feigning expanding the chozo myth by just retelling it with more details, hitting some known set pieces, but what about the sense of place and the idea of stumbling on things that have a live of their own? The ense of discovery and invading a place that isn't your own? To get intimate with the flora, fauna, and have glimpse of past event you may not fully understand? When everything is streamlined to a formula, it flatten all games into similar things, and in fact not a lot of people has continued to talk the game by now, it has no post buzz, it has no real identity, it's been consume and toss aside. If anything people are paying more attention to the original which had a bit more depth in it's structure, as clunky the game was, it's full of subtle thing that stand time, like the broken chozo statue, it was a place where things lived and has a logic on its own separate from the imperative of gameplay and entertainment. Becaue if anything, metroid is inspired by Alien, but not all of alien, it's an expansion of the beginning of the movie, the idea of stumbling on an alien site with stuff we don't understand, up to the reveal of the weird eggs, this whole sequence is teh whole identity of early metroid, the problem of metroid, is that it hasn't yet (imho) found an equivalent identity to evolve into, that's why it keep slapping memorabilia of its best moments into increasingly trite action game trope, it doesn't now how to evolve organically, and as such its slowly becoming a franchise you can exchange for other game like halo, we are not there yet, but they try hard to be a pale copy of these run and gun, you have more story, character, set pieces, shooting arena, even attempt at multiplayer, none of these had catch on, because we have better elsewhere, but the metroid identity? We use to not have it, but game like hollow knight are slowly creeping on giving alternative, and the structure itself is slowly taken away by other game like Ori.

[Glyph]

There are no frustrations with Samus Returns control scheme. It is like playing a dumb game for children who want everything turned over and given to them. I understand the source of confusion - it can be hard to accept that new game is bad. But truth is....new game is bad.

My comparison of the controls in the two games isn't identical to me rating the two games overall. I can point out flaws in overall masterpieces, and the improvements in overall steps backward; things might be more nuanced than "bad" and "good".

I value minimizing the time for players to reach intentionality in a good control scheme. I don't want to get into the physics that are driven by the controls or even discuss the overall feel (beyond the clunkiness inherent in bad controls), since those aspects feel more like the domain of the 'engine'. I think you can make positive changes to the controls, which in turn promote intentionality, without affecting the feel too much. This could be done to SM without actually affecting Samus' physics or the feel beyond removing clunkiness. It doesn't have to be a dumb game for children because it has actually-not-terrible controls, it just means there is less cognitive overhead when trying to perform a basic action, which in turn means the player can string together actions more proficiently and actually play the game, not fight the controller.

[J-Snake]

I understand j-snake is an "Expert" on Super Metroid controls from wanting to turn the game into a multiplayer arena shooter. That's not the point. It was never the point - there is a moratorium on coin analogies from this point on.

There is a lack of argument. The SM controls are still bad, whether they are implanted into SM or a nerdy arena shooter.

Super Metroid has greatly refined controls that given its scope and scale, work very well on the controller they were designed for which is both small and lacking in extra ways to give inputs.

The snes gamepad offers actually plenty of input for SM, SM is only using it ineffectively. I challenge you to make one simple thought experiment, and compare what it gives and takes away: Just imagine there is only the button R instead of L and R spent for aiming, that is to lock horizontal position. The only potential advantage the original L/R-scheme has is that you can squat up and down while holding the same aiming direction (moonwalk properties can be scrapped as it is impotent anyway in SM), and that potential is not exploited by SM's design. Now look how convenient aiming becomes with the proposed R-scheme: You can stand still and aim full circle on the d-pad without adjusting any buttons during the process, no extra finger acrobatics required. And no extra memorization is required on "what is up and what is down" since you only aim on the d-pad. Plus, the designer has an option now to provide more consistent air control if so desired, like stopping horizontal movement mid-air by simply pressing R. All in all, the simple suggestion of the R-scheme alone doesn't violate any intentions of SM's design, provides an easier and more consistent way to control, and frees one button (L) completely so it is free to be used for something useful.

What I do wonder if the idea to give Samus a ledge grab was due to the technical limitations of the SNES or if it was a design philosophy one. Considering the bulkiness of the original design (before the geniuses at fucking Mercury Steam gave Samus level 60 World of Warcraft Raid Armor Paulrons) It makes sense to me that giving Samus a slimmer suit opened up her movement options in new ways.

Ledge grabbing in SM is useless as you can simply "fly up" walls with the wall jump anyway(actually a violation of the properties of a heavy bulky armor). Also, the design of SM's wall-jump kills any depth to environmental traversal. That is actually a major reason why the game is so easy to "break". Given most different geometric properties of a level, they are actually equivalent in regards to environmental reachability/traversal. The overpowered wall-jump cannot see a difference in them, so to speak. Given a tube-like structure or a single wall for example, the SM wall-jump doesn't care, you can just fly up both of them.

[The Armorman]

HI! Your suggestion for the controls is not good. I did your thought experiment and that's my high-brow opinion: that's not cool and it's not the game the Super Metroid is. The control scheme Super Metroid already has is fine and literally never caused anyone I know or myself to ever have to perform mental acrobatics to remember that L goes up and R goes down (cuz we change it every game so it works for us. We Are Many, You Are But One, etc)

Also the Wall Jump in Super Metroid is hella-tight and rewards players that discover it and understand how to use it with the morph ball effectively by letting them break the game. Allowing the player to break super Metroid is the greatest part of its design and it literally wouldn't have the longevity for speedrunners it does now if not.

The Ledge Grab in fusion (and zero mission) opens up some of those options to the player earlier and gives an intentional layer to the level design (possibly: I mean only in Fusion cuz it's locked away in MZM) that Super Metroid took advantage of in a different way.

[Alevice]

Tbh, i can agree with the gripe regarding aiming, but SM isnt really combat heave, unlike fusion, which plays up enemy ai patterns (this is considerably notable if you play metroid 2 and then you play fusion immediately afterwards and note how the same enmies are given a wider moveset and more reactions to your arsenal). SM fauna for the most part is pretty straight forward and there is rarely a moment where  your controls were a source of struggle agaisnt it. In short, I can agree its not perfect, but in the scope of the game it was provided, it has barely any impact.

Metroid fusion extended moveset came along a more action oriented game, where enemy maneuverability is much more extense, and reduces the exploration aspect in favor of combat. Frankly  Im not very fond of Zermo mission integrating those elemntes into it, since I often feel the game isnt sure what theme it wants to have.

My biggest gripè tho is that narratively SM was meant to proivde samus with her widest arsenal yet (prior to fusion), yet every other prequel and remake includes pretty mcuh every other tranvsersal powerup from it and laer released games, and make it feel  that the narrative last game with the power suit feel the most out of date.

[J-Snake]

I did your thought experiment and that's my high-brow opinion: that's not cool and it's not the game the Super Metroid is.

I don't see a single argument against the R-scheme in your post.

The control scheme Super Metroid already has is fine and literally never caused anyone I know or myself to ever have to perform mental acrobatics to remember that L goes up and R goes down

Remembering up and down is one thing. The finger acrobatics I am talking about is a separate thing occuring when you try to aim in a circle. I just mentioned it to reveal a weakness of SM's scheme. Of course it will never be a problem since you are never required to "circle-aim" in the game. But so it is not required to crouch up and down while locking the aiming direction. So the point is, why adding a convoluted control-scheme if the game doesn't make use of its potential advantages?

[eyeliner]

Whoever calls Super Metroid's control scheme convoluted is indeed spoiled.

I never had any problems whatsoever, even in my youth. I only had problems with the wall jump, but I had a lot of fun with the bombs. I adapted to the game, which I guess nowadays no one whants to do.

The controls are fine, the physics are fine. Why is it that everyone wants Super Mario physics in every single game out there?

I guess some people don't understand the game they so openly want to "correct".

[JutsBeaumont]

Samus Returns is extremely disappointing, but I expected nothing less from MercurySteam.

The controls in Super Metroid -- assuming we're not talking the specific button layout, that can be changed (and i do change it), but rather the physics and utilization of those physics and mechanics -- are nearly perfect. The only flaw is that the optimal button layout cuts out either aiming down or aiming up, but this is largely negligible and mostly a result of the controller design moreso than the game. If this were operating on a modern controller with more than two shoulder buttons it wouldn't be an issue. Other minor tweaks that romhacks have done might have been nice, like re-spin (hitting jump again in the air triggers the spinning animation if happen to fall out of it) or holding your speed-boost momentum after a jump, but are absolutely not necessary.

The physics themselves are far deeper and far more nuanced and expressive than any subsequent title. Super Metroid is about acrobatics, about moving and flowing through space in a watery manner, with an ebb and a flow; this aids and emphasizes not just the walljump and space jump mechanics, but also speed boost. It also provides an important distinction between navigation via shine spark vs regular speed boost. SM is not about dropping to the earth and sitting still like a rock, nor about hitting arbitrary or binary points to enter a different state (how subsequent games treat Speed Boost). The enemies are designed accordingly; they're creatures living in an organic space, things to be navigated largely at your will rather than complex, violent entities meant to directly draw the entirety of your attention. You can bypass most of them, and that's fine; i'd argue, even, it's good.

In other words, aiming diagonally up and down ~while~ in midair and still moving forward without bumbling your directionals is kind of important


Stop treating Super Metroid like an action game. It isn't. It is not the same kind of game as Fusion or Zero Mission, and it is so much stronger for that.

[J-Snake]

I never had any problems whatsoever, even in my youth.

It is because the game is easy and you become overpowered. I don't argue with that point.

Why is it that everyone wants Super Mario physics in every single game out there?

I certainly don't.

[J-Snake]

The physics themselves are far deeper and far more nuanced and expressive than any subsequent title.

The nuances are only relevant for tas players, the depth of play arises from how bugs/glitches accumulate, not from main mechanics.

Stop treating Super Metroid like an action game. It isn't.

The addition of R-scheme won't make SM an action game, just more convenient to play.