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[Cobralad]

i beated super metroid long ago a fun game you can go left and right

[JutsBeaumont]

The addition of R-scheme won't make SM an action game, just more convenient to play.

I find your description of convenience to be questionable. I don't see it as convenient. I see it as intrusive and contrary to the cohesion of SM's elements, as I outlined above; I didn't state that it would turn it into an action game, rather, that the inclination to make this alteration and the directionality of the alteration are action-oriented rather than world/momentum oriented. Immediate and direct accessibility to an action -- midair control re: gun -- when depth and mastery are the goal is not conducive to that goal.

The nuances are only relevant for tas players, the depth of play arises from how bugs/glitches accumulate, not from main mechanics.

This seems like a reductive statement. I wasn't referring to any of the "glitches" or exploits in the game (such as the mockball) when describing that nuance, although I do believe the mockball is Good and it feels relatively natural despite its probable status as an exploit. I was referring to its system of fluid momentum, to the way it handles wall-jumping, the greater precision necessary to bomb-jump effectively, the nuances to the space jumps effectiveness, the fluid rather than binary nature of the speed boost; et cetera. These are not "TAS-only" elements, and i'd argue even things like the mock ball are not "TAS" elements given its relative ease of use.  

[J-Snake]

I was referring to its system of fluid momentum, to the way it handles wall-jumping, the greater precision necessary to bomb-jump effectively, the nuances to the space jumps effectiveness, the fluid rather than binary nature of the speed boost; et cetera. These are not "TAS-only" elements, and i'd argue even things like the mock ball are not "TAS" elements given its relative ease of use.

Again, you can have all that with the R-scheme.

[JutsBeaumont]

No, you can't, because maintaining the momentum and your control of Samus' body while she moves is the key and integral component of my description.

[J-Snake]

What is stopping you from keeping your momentum with the R-scheme?

[JutsBeaumont]

Outside of your own description of the methodology? Nothing. But "momentum" is not the only word that I used.

If you'll recall:

and your control of Samus' body while she moves

[J-Snake]

 So what's the problem with "control of Samus' body while she moves" with the R-scheme?

[Glyph]

No, I was talking about the actual controls. The physics are fine.

And I don't think convoluted advanced techniques are great even if they were intentional (and mockball wasn't). This is not to say that what you can do with them isn't great. I am all for the openings mockball creates with a less convoluted means of execution. Same for wavedashing in melee, it really opens up the game tactics-wise but is a constant execution barrier that could be boiled down to a button (maybe plus a direction if you want to alter length).

[Superb Joe]

i beated super metroid long ago a fun game you can go left and right

fucked up but true

[JutsBeaumont]

So what's the problem with "control of Samus' body while she moves" with the R-scheme?

the fact that your exact methodology demands seizing the d-pad away from movement and towards angling of the gun? that is what you said.

Same for wavedashing in melee, it really opens up the game tactics-wise but is a constant execution barrier that could be boiled down to a button (maybe plus a direction if you want to alter length).

it could. but for what purpose? an "execution barrier" is by no means inherently or intrinsically bad. a game that remains static and unchanged throughout the majority -- if not totality -- of its lifespan is a game lacking in depth.

and is there really an "execution barrier" behind mock ball? all you have to do is run, jump, hit down while in the air and then hit down again when you land so you can instantly go into morph ball mode. it isn't difficult nor particularly convoluted.

[gimymblert]

If the execution barrier is optional in a single player game, I call that good.

[JutsBeaumont]

I agree.

[J-Snake]

So what's the problem with "control of Samus' body while she moves" with the R-scheme?

the fact that your exact methodology demands seizing the d-pad away from movement and towards angling of the gun? that is what you said.

D-pad is used for both, aiming and movement. Diagonal aiming directions coincide with the directions to build up forward momentum but tell me precisely what you realistically want to do in SM that you cannot do with a R-scheme.

[Glyph]

So what's the problem with "control of Samus' body while she moves" with the R-scheme?

the fact that your exact methodology demands seizing the d-pad away from movement and towards angling of the gun? that is what you said.

Same for wavedashing in melee, it really opens up the game tactics-wise but is a constant execution barrier that could be boiled down to a button (maybe plus a direction if you want to alter length).

it could. but for what purpose? an "execution barrier" is by no means inherently or intrinsically bad. a game that remains static and unchanged throughout the majority -- if not totality -- of its lifespan is a game lacking in depth.

and is there really an "execution barrier" behind mock ball? all you have to do is run, jump, hit down while in the air and then hit down again when you land so you can instantly go into morph ball mode. it isn't difficult nor particularly convoluted.

Superfluous execution barriers don't add depth. They add an upfront tax to be good at a game (mostly talking about fighting games here, yes it matters less in single player). You simply have to train muscle memory to overcome execution barriers; no one's ever just been so 'good' that they could skip this step (unless their skills transferred from somewhere else, but that means they still paid the tax elsewhere). Huge execution barriers in fighting games promote a game where players that have played more can muscle out others based sheerly on that fact. They can execute difficult techniques that are usually no-brainers when the other player might be unable, often throwing the balance of rps situations in their favor and making the game more single-player in the process. Well anyway, just a rant aimed at people with an execution-for-execution's-sake mindset in fighting games. As for the change point, change over the lifespan of a game can come from a growing understanding of the winning tactics, metagame, matchups, etc.

Anyway, for single player games, I'd just rather not waste people's time with this stuff (I think higher enjoyment can be derived from most games than that of correctly pressing buttons in a sequence). That said, I guess it's not the worst thing ever if an advanced technique is somewhat hard to execute, as long as it stays optional like gimmy said. I don't know the execution difficulty of mock ball either so I'll take your word on its ease, but I stand by my convoluted point. Mockball is not as intuitive as you describe it (you have to be running, do a full height jump, let go of left/right before pressing down, and start moving quickly upon landing), and it's esoteric enough that most people would have never discovered it on their own.

[omnilith]

Just to add to what glyph is saying, there are a large number of people out there with varying degrees of disabilities with their wrists and hands, but who nevertheless enjoy games. If you can make a technique in a game require fewer inputs without sacrificing the actual fun of playing a game, there's no real reason not to and it will make your game accessible to a broader audience of people who may enjoy it.

[Squire Grooktook]

Just a comment, but I prefer the Mike Z / Skullgirls philosophy on "execution" based challenges:

It's not actually deep. A pure execution barrier does not by itself add any meaningful choice or encourage players to think, especially in the case of games like Melee where there's almost never a reason not to utilize those exploits. Generally, in order to make a game "deeper", you should be aiming to create more meaningful choices.

That being said, I love how tactile and fluid Samus controls in SM, and that includes abilities like wall jumping and shine sparking. I don't think they require a particularly large amount of execution, to be honest. Never tried mockball though.

[Cobralad]

you can shoot stuff with freeze beam

[s0]

it's been a long time since i played super metroid, but samus returns has really cumbersome/overcomplex/slippery/BAD controls so people claiming they are somehow easy or accessible is blowing my mind rn.

[Cobralad]

did they manage to slip in their trademark storytelling that features esoteric worldbuilding concepts and naked women being dropped in without any introduction?

[s0]

the storytelling is actually ok i think. there's no dialog and no explicit "worldbuilding" that i can make out.