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[Cobralad]

i think the fact that its nintendos metroid 2 spared everyone out of it

[SchriefFighter]

I think a lot of people are enjoying it, it was the top 3DS on the eShop for like two weeks, and it was top 3 for a while after that.

[JutsBeaumont]

They add an upfront tax to be good at a game (mostly talking about fighting games here, yes it matters less in single player).

They're not for you, I think.

do a full height jump

No, you simply have to jump. I didn't say that the interaction of elements was necessarily intuitive, in that one would naturally think to perform the action with no prompt, I'm saying that performing the action feels natural and sensible. You run because that's the speed you want to attain. You jump because hitting down on the ground stops you. You hit down once in the air to prepare your morphball because there isn't time to maintain your momentum if you have to hit it twice when you land. You hit it at the moment of impact so you can bypass bouncing off of the ground and halting your momentum.

If you can make a technique in a game require fewer inputs without sacrificing the actual fun of playing a game, there's no real reason not to and it will make your game accessible to a broader audience of people who may enjoy it.

and every single one of them that I know -- who all actively pursue and engage in politics of ableism, mind -- disagree here? I don't intend to speak for them, but only to amplify their perspective. The issue is more complicated than this, and no particular piece of media is obligated in form to appeal to every single person; not everything is for everyone. Likewise, difficulty or matters of execution are also not the same as things like The Witness refusing to make itself accessible for color-blind people.

D-pad is used for both

So we're going to use the exact same buttons for two completely separate actions at the exact same time. We're going to run one direction (with the ability to turn, or slow, or stop) while aiming in the other directions using the same buttons. This is going to work how, exactly? Tell me again how that's more fluid and less convoluted than the present system?

[J-Snake]

D-pad is used for both

So we're going to use the exact same buttons for two completely separate actions at the exact same time. We're going to run one direction (with the ability to turn, or slow, or stop) while aiming in the other directions using the same buttons.

In SM you can only aim straight or diagonal towards your running direction while running. You can do that with the d-pad alone instead of overlapping it with the L/R-scheme. So I am not sure why you bring that up. And if you wish to stop and turn and keep your aiming locked at the same time (for whatever fabricated reason) you can do so by simply pressing R to decelerate momentum while keeping your aim to whatever direction you desire on the d-pad.

[JutsBeaumont]

(for whatever fabricated reason)

as if the entire reason you want to change the system to something contradictory to everything that Super Metroid's physics emphasizes isn't "fabricated"?

Does your system lock horizontal position, as you stated, or not? This would entail the halting of momentum. If it does not, then this means that your momentum and directionality will be maintained the moment you hit R, switching the D-Pad to aiming rather than movement. But then this means you cannot control movement while aiming, something which the present system -- despite the inability to say, aim behind you -- does allow you to do. Your system emphasizes movement of the gun. The present system, as it ought to be, emphasizes both movement and momentum of the body.

[J-Snake]

Yes, you lock your horizontal position.

The present system, as it ought to be, emphasizes both movement and momentum of the body.

SM implements only very limited use of it, that is why its L/R-scheme is a waste of resources for this game. For instance you cannot aim straight-up while running, even when you hold L and R. When you want to turn you have to stop running in the first place, so where is the problem? Just try to construct a sequence of actions you like to express with SM's L/R scheme which cannot be done with the R-scheme.

[JutsBeaumont]

You say "yes, you lock your horizontal position" but then you're ignoring the implications of that and in the process refusing to articulate how this system would work within those implications, like with the conditions that i've stated above.

[gimymblert]

The game as lore, it's actually dump after you complete the game, which is dumb (basically how the show discover parasite X, create the metroid, see the metroid evolve, see two factions argue (warrior and scientist) and start eradicating the metroid, then SPOILER ...

I feel that ending has less impact because there is nothing that build toward it, while the original one had the broken chozo statue to make a deep connection with the world and the player's experience as he come to understand what happen.

[ProgramGamer]

[...] while the original one had the broken chozo statue to make a deep connection with the world and the player's experience as he come to understand what happen.

forgive me

[Glyph]

They add an upfront tax to be good at a game (mostly talking about fighting games here, yes it matters less in single player).

They're not for you, I think.

The obvious rebuttal here is that I enjoy these games despite their flaws, so, uh, they are for me?? Maybe trying to fix something isn't tantamount to disliking it??

do a full height jump

No, you simply have to jump. I didn't say that the interaction of elements was necessarily intuitive, in that one would naturally think to perform the action with no prompt, I'm saying that performing the action feels natural and sensible. You run because that's the speed you want to attain. You jump because hitting down on the ground stops you. You hit down once in the air to prepare your morphball because there isn't time to maintain your momentum if you have to hit it twice when you land. You hit it at the moment of impact so you can bypass bouncing off of the ground and halting your momentum.

You're leaving out some nonsense here because it doesn't serve your point. So...
-You have to release the direction you're moving in mid-jump
-You have to be holding jump before releasing the direction you're moving in (so you can get non-full-height jumps but you have to release and re-press jump and do every input in a much shortened window because of the lower height. Nothing 'simple' there)
-You have to press down after releasing the direction
-You have to re-press the direction you want to move in within an actually pretty tight window.

Maybe if the technique only required what you mentioned and was not a medley of releases and presses, only some of which make sense, I would agree here.

[gimymblert]

@Programgamer
I understand it's just a joke forgive me ...

But allow me to be triggered
You don't want your friend to be revive as a zombie, shell of its former self, even the body (gameplay) is still fine ...

[JutsBeaumont]

Maybe trying to fix something isn't tantamount to disliking it??

It isn't tantamount to that, no, but I don't agree with your premise. They're not broken, and you're trying to disregard an important aspect of their function.

-You have to release the direction you're moving in mid-jump

Because that's the only way to hit "down"... down + forward is a different action altogether and doesn't count towards morphball.

-You have to be holding jump before releasing the direction you're moving in

Well, yes, because that's... how jumping in a game with variable jump height works?

(so you can get non-full-height jumps but you have to release and re-press jump and do every input in a much shortened window because of the lower height. Nothing 'simple' there)

I have no idea what you're talking about in these parenthesis here. I've never had to hit jump again in this process.

-You have to re-press the direction you want to move in within an actually pretty tight window.

I can't say I've ever felt it was "tight", and my execution (like in fighting games) isn't exactly stellar; you just hit it around the time you hit down.  

[Glyph]

Maybe trying to fix something isn't tantamount to disliking it??

It isn't tantamount to that, no, but I don't agree with your premise. They're not broken, and you're trying to disregard an important aspect of their function.

Care to elaborate?

-You have to be holding jump before releasing the direction you're moving in

Well, yes, because that's... how jumping in a game with variable jump height works?

Read the quoted text again. Talking about your left/right input. If you don't release this while holding jump your move speed will be halved and the glitch can't be performed. Which leads into...

(so you can get non-full-height jumps but you have to release and re-press jump and do every input in a much shortened window because of the lower height. Nothing 'simple' there)

I have no idea what you're talking about in these parenthesis here. I've never had to hit jump again in this process.

If you release jump to shorten your height, you must re-press it before releasing the direction you're moving in. You can't circumvent this by releasing the direction and pressing down before you release jump because releasing jump will cause your momentum to halve and the glitch will fail again.
...

Sorry, but nothing is simple or particularly easy about this. It's a glitch and it's performed in a needlessly specific way because of that. Maybe you're conflating its game-opening benefits for the speedrunning community (which I won't argue!) with the quality of its implementation, and that seems like a bad hill to die on.

[JutsBeaumont]

Care to elaborate?

Fighting games at their upper levels are games of skill. Skill is not just knowing what to do at the right time, but being able to adequately perform the correct thing under the right conditions. This requires practice. This requires training. There's an entire mode dedicated to this for that purpose. Execution isn't everything, but it's a big deal, it's meant to be a big deal, and there's nothing wrong with a different "game" existing for those who know how to play it differently.

This is what the games are; it is a fundamental component. You're denying that.

Sorry, but nothing is simple or particularly easy about this.

My description re: feel was primarily for the regular mockball. I still maintain this, regardless of the subjective nature of your experiences. I don't maintain that it's perfect, precisely because of it's nature as an exploit; I do maintain that it isn't as esoteric or counter-intuitive to the functioning of the games systems that some might proclaim, which is why I use the term exploit. It's likely an unforeseen or unintended interaction between the function of other elements. I've described the logic behind it, and that much is irrefutable; whether you choose to accept it based on your own experiences and execution is a different matter. My interest is primarily in articulation and description. Easy isn't an objective standard.

Further, I stated this before:

I didn't say that the interaction of elements was necessarily intuitive, in that one would naturally think to perform the action with no prompt, I'm saying that performing the action feels natural and sensible.

this is key. But I could have phrased it more concisely: "I'm saying that performing the action [once you are aware of its function & how] feels natural and sensible."

I acknowledge that the short one is more obtuse. I'd performed it recently once getting the Ice Beam early without realizing I'd pressed the jump button once more. A little bit of "unconscious recognition of how the momentum works" and a bit more "my mistake".

Maybe you're conflating its game-opening benefits for the speedrunning community (which I won't argue!) with the quality of its implementation, and that seems like a bad hill to die on.

"Maybe you're conflating things that have very little connection and nearly no reason to be conflated" sigh

[Glyph]

Care to elaborate?

Fighting games at their upper levels are games of skill. Skill is not just knowing what to do at the right time, but being able to adequately perform the correct thing under the right conditions. This requires practice. This requires training. There's an entire mode dedicated to this for that purpose. Execution isn't everything, but it's a big deal, it's meant to be a big deal, and there's nothing wrong with a different "game" existing for those who know how to play it differently.

Yeah, again, pretty much this:

Superfluous execution barriers don't add depth. They add an upfront tax to be good at a game (mostly talking about fighting games here, yes it matters less in single player). You simply have to train muscle memory to overcome execution barriers; no one's ever just been so 'good' that they could skip this step (unless their skills transferred from somewhere else, but that means they still paid the tax elsewhere). Huge execution barriers in fighting games promote a game where players that have played more can muscle out others based sheerly on that fact. They can execute difficult techniques that are usually no-brainers when the other player might be unable, often throwing the balance of rps situations in their favor and making the game more single-player in the process. Well anyway, just a rant aimed at people with an execution-for-execution's-sake mindset in fighting games. As for the change point, change over the lifespan of a game can come from a growing understanding of the winning tactics, metagame, matchups, etc.

This ideal of skill is really commonly held in fighting game communities. It's subjective though, and it really depends on what you want to use fighting games as a measuring stick for. I'd personally rather play a fighting game that rewards your ability to get into your opponent's head and outplay them mentally than one where it can all be decided before the game starts based on the difference between the two player's frame-tight execution consistency.

This is what the games are; it is a fundamental component. You're denying that.

I guess it's true that execution is necessary for any game, simply because you have to 'execute' some button press to get anywhere. But there's a difference between having basic controls and having actual execution challenges in a game. And games can challenge you on more layers than execution, so they're not exactly necessary.

Sorry, but nothing is simple or particularly easy about this.

My description re: feel was primarily for the regular mockball. I still maintain this, regardless of the subjective nature of your experiences. I don't maintain that it's perfect, precisely because of it's nature as an exploit; I do maintain that it isn't as esoteric or counter-intuitive to the functioning of the games systems that some might proclaim, which is why I use the term exploit. It's likely an unforeseen or unintended interaction between the function of other elements. I've described the logic behind it, and that much is irrefutable; whether you choose to accept it based on your own experiences and execution is a different matter. My interest is primarily in articulation and description. Easy isn't an objective standard.

Further, I stated this before:

I didn't say that the interaction of elements was necessarily intuitive, in that one would naturally think to perform the action with no prompt, I'm saying that performing the action feels natural and sensible.

this is key. But I could have phrased it more concisely: "I'm saying that performing the action [once you are aware of its function & how] feels natural and sensible."

I think the main thing I wanted to show here was that it's got some superfluous bits, not that it's entirely without merit. And the logic behind it is 'irrefutable' insofar as we've agreed on how it works; some of the inputs don't directly follow if you picture this as a running jump into running morph ball. Any execution and conceptual ease you feel with performing it now could have been improved further, that's all.

Maybe you're conflating its game-opening benefits for the speedrunning community (which I won't argue!) with the quality of its implementation, and that seems like a bad hill to die on.

"Maybe you're conflating things that have very little connection and nearly no reason to be conflated" sigh

Not really unrelated. Mockball is only widely known and used thanks to its applications in speedrunning. It's almost sacrosanct to them as a tool, and I'm getting the same vibes here. The point here wasn't to bash its applications though, just the implementation.

[J-Snake]

You say "yes, you lock your horizontal position" but then you're ignoring the implications of that and in the process refusing to articulate how this system would work within those implications, like with the conditions that i've stated above.

No, you refuse to articulate how the R-scheme would be in conflict with what you try to express in SM. In SM movement and aiming is not totally separated, as I already pointed out. That is why I challenged you to contruct a sequence of actions you cannot express with the R-scheme.

Let's consider air-control for instance. When you jump to the right during normal running (not accelerated) you then only have two options: either you can keep your momentum while aiming diagonal-right/down or right, or you can immediately stop momentum while aiming. Aiming straight-up even implies stopping your momentum. All of that can be expressed with the R-scheme. You can aim in the desired direction by simply holding the directionals towards it, and since stopping momentum is completely orthogonal to it you can do so by pressing R.

Now let's consider jumping to the right during accelerated running. You can now stop momentum quickly by pressing the opposite movement direction (here "left") and an aiming action is reducing your momentum when you release "right" so that you directly end up in the "non-accelerated" state above, for which I already showed there is no conflict with the R-scheme. Now you have the same options with the R-scheme, you can also press the opposite movement direction to stop momentum quickly, or perform an aiming action with the option to hold "right" or release it after aiming diagonal for example to instantly switch to the non-accelerated state. The only potential difference here is that you let your aim go for a split-second in this select moment, and that is not even taking the R-button into account. By pressing R, depending on the granularity the designer is free to choose, you can either enter the binary decelerated state like in SM or you can gradually decelerate until the momentum is stopped (so that reduced scheme can add even more expression to a momentum-based system than SM is offering, if that is what you desire).

[gimymblert]

Problem is the game is about exploration, those aiming shenanigan don't help that at all, they are superfluous, diagonal are just there for extra convenience, It's why they aren't optimal YAGNI.

[eyeliner]

A real question, this time:

If this is Metroid II's remake thread, why is a Super Metroid control scheme/issues debate going on?

[ProgramGamer]

I don't know, I've stopped reading the walls of text at this point.

[JobLeonard]

^