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[AdamAtomic]

yea the more fish you have the more they will swim back and forth between you and the next object of importance (first the seed, then the soil, then the door)   It is apparently too subtle for many, but was a pleasurable discovery for some?  I dunno, very subjective to say the least

[moi]

They constantly oscillate between your position and the direction you should go, so yeah, it's not very obvious, especially when they overshoot you, but it can help a bit.

[Alex May]

I noticed it but was kind of going round and round that bit under the soil thinking there was a way in, as they seemed to be pointing into the solid rock. Would be cool if they pointed the way you actually have to go rather than the way to the next thing as the crow flies. Above the level of polish required for a ten day project though.

[Garthy]

(removed quoted text)

Well, there's probably not a lot I can say at this point and not end up the bad guy. I brought it on myself through my own stupid bluntness when I should have chosen silence. Live and learn- even if I'm too stupid to learn this lesson after the first dozen or more times.

At this point I'll just say that I genuinely mean no offense toward you, AdamAtomic. I didn't enjoy the game- but obviously some people did. There's nothing that places my opinion in a position of greater importance than others who felt somewhat differently to myself. So at the end of the day, if I'm not a fan, who cares? It doesn't really matter. The important thing is that you won over a number of people, and that's no small feat to do with a game with such a short development cycle.

Best of luck with your future works and whatever you choose to do.

[AdamAtomic]

No problem!  I also meant no offense, but the idea that the few people that DID like the game are somehow only liking it to be cool I find completely ridiculous, especially on TIGSource.  I mean this is the forum that made Jason Rohrer flip out!!  I feel like we don't stand for a lot of bullshit here, which is one of the reasons I love this place so much.  I'm definitely taking note of everyone's feedback.

This article may give some indication of the complete disarray of my thoughts regarding FATHOM and the feedback I've received so far:

http://gamasutra.com/blogs/AdamSaltsman/20090522/1427/Accessible_Provocation.php

Anyways I'm not discouraged by the feedback at all, I find it immensely helpful and super exciting basically   Thanks again to everybody!

[ChevyRay]

yea the more fish you have the more they will swim back and forth between you and the next object of importance (first the seed, then the soil, then the door)   It is apparently too subtle for many, but was a pleasurable discovery for some?  I dunno, very subjective to say the least

:O

I didn't notice this! But I still managed to find all of those things.

[deadeye]

I mean this is the forum that made Jason Rohrer flip out!!

Over what?  What's the story on this?  Sorry to derail, a link or some search terms will suffice (the thought of Rohrer flipping out is amusing to me )

[Ixis]

Going back to how to stop people from playing the game multiple times and searching for a new ending, perhaps if instead of going back to the start menu the game transports the player to another page, or just holds on that last image of the water and the broken robot. Presenting the player with the start screen again would promote the player playing the game again, expecting there to be another ending that was missed, especially with the new "start game" screen.

[AdamAtomic]

There are good reasons to replay it though, I definitely did not expect people to pick up on all the details on the first  play through, it is a short game after all!  But the umm apparent implication that there MUST be a good ending is not tightly coupled with the idea of replays?  It is more powerful and inherent than that I think?

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

The instant someone finds a greater meaning in a confusing scenario there is frequently a shift where people who disagree won't comment for fear of being labeled as uncultured or unintellient for having "missed the point", and people who want to appear a little more intelligent than they actually are will pitch in and say they saw it too.

I think Knytt nailed atmosphere, and Passage was artistic expression. I just didn't see either here. I would have liked to have- but all I saw was a needlessly frustrating game.

I'm not commenting on the game, I'm commenting on the commentary. My suggestion was that a few too many people may be caught up in singing its artistic praise in response to the existing artistic praise, and too few were questioning it and saying "um... I don't think it was quite that good, or that deep".

there's just something inherently ridiculous to me in saying that people only like a game because they want to avoid being labeled as uncultured or unintelligent. especially on these forums.

also one thing to notice is that the only people going on about the game's supposed artistic value or meaning are the people who don't like the game. the people who like the game aren't saying 'i like it cause it's ART!' or something, they're just saying they enjoyed the experience, the same way you enjoy any game.

[Terrorbuns]

Everyone confuses me 

Personally, I enjoyed the game. Even the somewhat annoying water movement. I was held in suspense, and the dark made me wonder if there was something out to eat me. Nevertheless, I got to the boss (I avoid pits as a rule of thumb), fell into water, explored, collected a LOT of fishes, got the seed (I didn't know it was a seed), figured out the fish pointed me in the right direction, found door before figuring out I was suppose to go to patch of dirt (Hey, I got lost along the way), grew tree, went back to thorn door, explored a bit more, and then game ended and I was like "aww... it's over...". I was kinda disappointed there wasn't more, but I liked it. You should make a sequel or prequel or something, that could expand on the theme, or whatever you were trying to convey. I tend to miss messages from games

I think people were expecting to go back to blasting things to death after the water part and weren't expecting the game to abruptly end. Interesting game though.

EDIT: And let's face it, life isn't always a happy cheery fun fun time.

[bobusdoleus]

Rehash city, eh?

Anyways. I offer an interpretation, likely one that was never intended:
The seed-box-mathing is labeled 'CPU.' You are, presumably, a robot. (I'm not sure this is exer explicit, but I'm-a assume it.) So, perhaps your 'planting' your own CPU after death is some sort of metaphor for an afterlife struggle to purify your spirit so you can ascend/reincarnate/die properly. Or for something else. But planting your own CPU, which is lost at the bottommost depths of a watery grave, after death so it can be reborn as a tree strikes me as a potentially powerful image.

[Katamaran]

this has made me really excited about flixel (which I hadn't heard about before this) im going to be helping with a high school summer camp for making games at my college and it's being taught in flash - I really hope it's ready by then cause it'd be great to dive in this with them.

also, I liked the game

[Garthy]

there's just something inherently ridiculous to me in saying that people only like a game because they want to avoid being labeled as uncultured or unintelligent. especially on these forums.

Just to make sure my choice of words did not give the wrong intention, I'll quote from my previous post:

"For what it's worth, I don't think everyone who [claimed to have] enjoyed it did so only due to peer pressure."

I've added the words "claimed to have" to clarify exactly what I meant. My original choice of words was poor.

I do not feel that just because someone liked it that they are only doing so to appease or elevate themselves in front of others. I merely suggest that it is possible that *some* people may do this. I would like to firmly establish this is the intent in my comments, so that I do not have to specifically address it each time they are quoted in the thread to follow.

I hope my comments properly establish my intent and rectify this potential misunderstanding.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

but you do think some of them have -- saying you're not accusing everyone of lying in order to appear cultured doesn't make accusing some people of lying in order to appear cultured any better.

[Nate Kling]

You guys seem to be going pretty harsh on Garthy, give him a break  .  He is making a very rational argument in a civil and respectable manner.  I can see his point, pressure to act as if you see something deeper certainly exists.  I encourage him and other people to challenge artwork as we shouldn't allow anything to go unquestioned.  Im not advocating people just slamming games but if the game is strong it should stand up to criticism about it and be able to construct an argument as to why it is effective as a piece of art.  I guess this is going off topic, though as Paul has previously explained the game is more about appreciating the experience, but its an interesting subject.

[Zaphos]

a link or some search terms will suffice

Primrose thread; rohrer == jcr13 -- http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=4767.msg160176#msg160176

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i don't think anybody thinks the game can't be improved in any way. the issue isn't criticism or lack of criticism at all, that has nothing to do with it. the issue is enjoyment or lack of enjoyment, and whether you should baselessly accuse people of pretending to enjoy a game. it's not as if the people who said they enjoy it think it's perfect.

the idea that there's "pressure" to say you enjoyed the game is kind of weird. where do you see this pressure? is anyone saying anything bad about the people who didn't enjoy the game?

[Ixis]

I don't think you're getting it Paul, here's a loosely based audio/visual example: http://uk.truveo.com/company-suckup/id/36028845815050517

[Corpus]

I'd say it's almost certain that at least some people are always saying that they like something simply to fit in, to make themselves seem cool, to avoid seeming uncultured, etc. People lie about which classic books they've read all the time, and also about which ones they most enjoy. The same applies here.

If you think that's ridiculous, you either must not know many people, must not know them very well, or must simply have been fortunate enough to know nothing but honest folk throughout your life.

This is a general argument based on people shit. I am not 'dissing' Fathom in any way.