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TIGSource ForumsCommunityTownhallFATHOM (Feat. Danny B)
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Alec
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« Reply #220 on: May 24, 2009, 02:10:17 PM »

Its a completely limited perspective to assume that an artistic work has to have one specific meaning that was planned from the outset.

There can be multiple meanings, no meanings, partial meanings, etc... in any creative work. Whether it was intended to be artistic or not.

No see I completely understand this, and I love multiple meanings and partial meanings in art. Some of the best work in history is classic because they work on so many levels.

It's just the "no meanings" part that bugs me, unless the game itself is fun or compelling. Because if you have no meaning, and no fun (which is obviously an objective opinion here, but some things like rohrer's stuff it's obvious that fun wasn't thought of during design), then what exactly is left to give the work value? Soliciting a response from an audience? Adam said this wasn't the point of fathom, so I'm extremely curious as to what the point was.

Sometimes having "no meaning" can be a "point". (not that I think this is the case here)

There are infinite perspectives that can be had on a creative piece. Because you don't personally see something in it, doesn't mean its objectively devoid of meaning.

This is what I don't understand about a lot of developers in this scene.

I mean, I love the fact that there's a bunch of talented, creative, funny people that hang out here, and we can discuss different ways of doing stuff. What I don't understand is the lack of tolerance for different ways of looking at things.

So you don't like something - great. The world doesn't need to hear about it 24/7. Take what you find interesting, invest in that, move on. In fact, maybe even invest some time in understanding something you don't initially like. Be willing to look at it from another perspective. And then another. And another. You might even learn something.

Instead, we have people who essentially say "I wouldn't make this game this way" which is one thing, and a number of them go on to say "and you shouldn't do it your way".

Fuck that. Fuck that a thousand times.

And why are people still hung up on this infantile notion that we have to be "having fun" all the time while experiencing a creative work.

There are much deeper ways of sharing and experiencing than repetition of the same basic concept or being pandered to with immediate, addictive positive feedback.

Jarring changes in pace or structure may be "shocking". Negative feedback may be surprising and unwelcome. That's still a valuable experience, perhaps sometimes even more valuable.

To all the developer pundits that have found their way to do something - congratulations. Keep it up. I respect your work.

Now respect the fact that not everyone makes games your way.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #221 on: May 24, 2009, 02:41:14 PM »

alec is my hero  Kiss
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Glaiel-Gamer
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« Reply #222 on: May 24, 2009, 03:57:24 PM »

This is what I don't understand about a lot of developers in this scene.
...
Now respect the fact that not everyone makes games your way.

Ya I don't know if this part was directed at me or whatever, but I agree mostly with all those points there. I AM trying to understand what I don't initially like, I played fathom through 3 times I think, and I'm sticking in this thread for a reason. As I mentioned before, it baffled me and I still don't really get it.

I may sound cynical at times but I'm just trying to learn. I want to know where the value in games/art comes from, which is an extremely open ended and vague question with no solid answer, yet reading a thread where everyone praises a game as being art without question doesn't help at all, cause if I don't get it I'd stare at the thread and ponder why. What makes game X so special? Fun? Meaning? Emotion? Story? Angering people? Atmosphere?
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #223 on: May 24, 2009, 03:58:45 PM »

i think you must be reading a different thread. could you quote someone who praised this game for being art (without questions), rather than praised it for being a good game?
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Glaiel-Gamer
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« Reply #224 on: May 24, 2009, 04:32:41 PM »

It's reached the point where trying to argue my point just makes me sound like an asshole/idiot and my words don't make sense anymore so I'm just gonna stop now.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #225 on: May 24, 2009, 04:38:33 PM »

i don't think you sound like an idiot, it's easy to misremember. maybe i'm misremembering too -- but i really don't remember that anyone who praised it praised it because it's art or something, or just uncritically accepted it without questions. there was a lot of 'i like it, but this part confused me' responses. besides, even if someone just says 'this game is great' -- that doesn't necessarily mean they liked every little thing about it or wasn't confused by anything.
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« Reply #226 on: May 24, 2009, 04:52:20 PM »

@Glaiel-Gamer

I've gone through some similar situations in the past year or so, so maybe I can answer some of your questions.

Whether games are art, or what constitutes art is such a complex and annoying question because it's ultimately all subjective, no matter how you slice it. I'd personally love to take "art" and chop it's little body into pieces and study each piece under a microscope before properly labeling it and shoving it off to some museum where it is properly categorized, labeled and known. I can't because it bumps into the question "what is art".

I personally don't know what value art games possibly have, or art in general (aside from a big scam, of which as an artist fresh out of college am an active participant), but that doesn't mean others don't find some value in it, I just don't understand it and never will. For some people there's some unknown visceral quality in a thing I just don't get, and while I'm certain there are those out there who use this as an excuse to become part of a "crowd", there are many more who honestly just like a thing for... well, whatever.

If you're like me you're probably never going to find out "why" a thing is good, but I would not discourage you from finding answers. Learn what draws people to such games and question their views. There is absolutely nothing wrong with criticism, even if your criticism is incorrect. A good creator will know good crit from bad crit, and of all criticisms only 30% is actually crucial and useful to an artist.

And, if you don't understand why something is fun, don't be discouraged if people can't tell you why or get all defensive because you're curious. Try putting yourself in their shoes, see what parts they like and try to see it from their perspective. Baroque is meaningless unless you consider the perspectives of the Roman catholic church during the 17th century.
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Chris Z
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« Reply #227 on: May 24, 2009, 05:33:23 PM »

Dead horse, beating, etc.
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« Reply #228 on: May 24, 2009, 05:45:29 PM »

It's reached the point where trying to argue my point just makes me sound like an asshole/idiot and my words don't make sense anymore so I'm just gonna stop now.

Yea i think this is a good discussion, and I know that some of my responses on the thread so far are probably confusing as all hell because i am having an entire dialog about all these same topics with myself, so there is a good chance that i am assuming like major blocks of self-argumentative reasoning that are completely absent from this thread too Smiley
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« Reply #229 on: May 24, 2009, 09:33:54 PM »

This has been a really good discussion in this thread.  Its unfortunate that people are so hostile toward games with any kind of meaning or anything deeper than shooting badguys and making things blow up.  It would be great to have some artist statements for games.  Not explaining everything but provoking thought during the game and guiding the player in the right direction of the ideas in the game.  Of course if a game maker were to make an artist statement im sure people here would drop the P-bomb all over you.  Its unfortunate becuase I think the artist statement can be a very useful tool.  I feel like this discussion has gone on one million times in tig but I think it needs to continue.
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« Reply #230 on: May 24, 2009, 09:36:41 PM »

Meaning? Yes. Thought-provoking themes and ideas? Yes. Artist statements? No.
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moi
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« Reply #231 on: May 24, 2009, 09:38:10 PM »

Meaning? Yes. Thought-provoking themes and ideas? Yes. Artist statements? No.
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« Reply #232 on: May 24, 2009, 10:19:49 PM »

would anyone care to elaborate on why they think a statement made by the artist about his or her work (an artist statement) is a bad thing?
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« Reply #233 on: May 24, 2009, 10:24:52 PM »

would anyone care to elaborate on why they think a statement made by the artist about his or her work (an artist statement) is a bad thing?

I draw a circle on a piece of paper in 2 seconds. Is it art? No. Now, I write a lengthy 2-page essay on how the simplistic nature of the lonely circle drawn imperfectly on a piece of paper represents the futility in striving for perfection, and how the pencil drawing and recyclable paper it was drawn on represents the temporary nature of human creation, and yet even while a piece of art itself might not last through the centuries, the materials and "ideals" involved in creating it will be recycled for generations to come. Is it art now? No it's a piece of paper with a badly drawn circle on it, and a 2-page essay. The explanation of a work should not be more important than the work itself, because if that is the case, then you failed at communicating the idea through the art.
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« Reply #234 on: May 24, 2009, 11:35:27 PM »

I draw a circle on a piece of paper in 2 seconds. Is it art? No. Now, I write a lengthy 2-page essay on how the simplistic nature of the lonely circle drawn imperfectly on a piece of paper represents the futility in striving for perfection, and how the pencil drawing and recyclable paper it was drawn on represents the temporary nature of human creation, and yet even while a piece of art itself might not last through the centuries, the materials and "ideals" involved in creating it will be recycled for generations to come. Is it art now? No it's a piece of paper with a badly drawn circle on it, and a 2-page essay. The explanation of a work should not be more important than the work itself, because if that is the case, then you failed at communicating the idea through the art.

Actually, artistic statements are used, but only for educational purposes, or for museum curators. But if it's a modernist/post-modernist/existentialist/etc work I assume no statement should be used.
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Alex May
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« Reply #235 on: May 25, 2009, 02:18:20 AM »

would anyone care to elaborate on why they think a statement made by the artist about his or her work (an artist statement) is a bad thing?

I draw a circle on a piece of paper in 2 seconds. Is it art? No. Now, I write a lengthy 2-page essay on how the simplistic nature of the lonely circle drawn imperfectly on a piece of paper represents the futility in striving for perfection, and how the pencil drawing and recyclable paper it was drawn on represents the temporary nature of human creation, and yet even while a piece of art itself might not last through the centuries, the materials and "ideals" involved in creating it will be recycled for generations to come. Is it art now? No it's a piece of paper with a badly drawn circle on it, and a 2-page essay. The explanation of a work should not be more important than the work itself, because if that is the case, then you failed at communicating the idea through the art.
bit reductionist.



For an art exhibition linking London with Venice, my sister made a 1:1 sculpture of a dissected throat, painted it gold, called it "The throat of Venice". It looked like regalia from a short distance back. Yeah, interesting organic-looking scupture, I thought at first, but it took her artist's statement to show me that this was her best work yet; she was born in Malacca in Malaysia, and since a lot of spice trade went from there to Venice, one writer said that "Whoever is Lord in Malacca has his hand on the throat of Venice." The linking of London, where she now lives and works, Venice, where she has stayed, and Malacca, where she was born, in this sort of gluttonous filigree was quite moving for me. Without the statement the work for me would have been reduced to a (visually interesting) pun on the word 'greed'.

In the same exhibition someone had simply painted a circle on to a painting of some sky. The painting transfixed me for 5 minutes because it reminded me of a recurring dream I used to have. It wasn't much more complicated than your circle on a piece of paper. But again, the artist's statement rang true with that memory of a dream, as the artist had written about some surprisingly similar themes. The statement really enriched the work for me.
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« Reply #236 on: May 25, 2009, 03:11:08 AM »

i think the 'especially in this community' comment implied that i do know it happens, i just doubt it happens to any significant degree here.
Maybe not among the more established/respected/active members like yourself, but on the lower and more populous levels of the pyramid (i.e. on the frontpage), you can definitely see a kind of mob mentality suggestive of this kind of thing. For example, it used to be that anything by Cactus was automatically considered further evidence of the sun shining out of his arse (and similar situations have been observed since then, such as the Age of Annabelle), whereas, recently, a lot of frontpage comments on his newest video seemed to be criticising him for being Cactus. Still, though, it probably isn't to any significant degree.

even in the general population, the number of people who would lie to claim they've read some classic work when in fact they have not is probably tiny.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/mar/05/uk-reading-habits-1984

it's such a trivial thing that i can't imagine someone lying over something like that, unless they are one of those people who think so little of lying that they lie about a great many other things as well, and lie every day about something or other.
Everyone lies.

do you regularly catch people who claim to have read something when they have not?
Yes. I may be a bad example, though, because I'm better read than most people I know (IRL), and, further, kind of have a reputation (IRL) which leads people to assume that I'm better read than is actually the case, so it might be that people think they need to pretend to be more widely-read than they are around the person that some people mistakenly think I am. Huh?

i mean, as an analogy, a lot of people pirate, perhaps even most. but just accusing people of pirating something without evidence is still bad form. likewise accusing people of pretending to like a game in the game's own developer's thread where you are sure that he'll read it is pretty bad form.
I totally agree. I wasn't defending the people that had been making those suggestions - more than bad form, I think it's just fairly stupid - but simply arguing with the arguments you'd been making against the accusations, as pointless as that is. I thought I'd said that, but I might have been less clear than I hoped to be...


EDIT:
Also, on an unrelated note, art skepticism is one of the most boring things.
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« Reply #237 on: May 25, 2009, 03:14:45 AM »

This is pretty cool, now hurry up and release the flixel framework so I have a reason to use flash again!
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Gainsworthy
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« Reply #238 on: May 25, 2009, 03:15:38 AM »



Also a statement! Read Alex's post.


Wow. It is a throat. Looks rather fancy and ornate! I suppose a statement does work in that case - there's a fair amount of depth which only a select few would ever see. Elucidation can assist.

Regardless, I still think statements can hurt more than help - one of the amazing things about any artwork (not just formal art, or Art-art, but general creative products) is how it can be interpreted in such a personal manner. Creates a real connection. When one figures out what it is they see, it can feel as if though the piece was made for them. Or they for it, I suppose!
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Alec
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« Reply #239 on: May 25, 2009, 03:23:42 AM »

Regardless, I still think statements can hurt more than help - one of the amazing things about any artwork (not just formal art, or Art-art, but general creative products) is how it can be interpreted in such a personal manner. Creates a real connection. When one figures out what it is they see, it can feel as if though the piece was made for them. Or they for it, I suppose!

Feels like there's a lot of truth in this...

I still value it when creators explain their work from their perspective, as long as they're not trying to force me to agree with it.
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