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[tankun]

Hi everyone,

I wanted to share some of my experiences regarding this matter and pick your brains on the way.

For the starters here's my background if you're interested:

https://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=45.msg1368324#msg1368324

Here's the short and relevant version:

I've started my career as a professional musician then worked as a film director and then I went on to become a game developer. Funny where life takes you.

I recently developed two games, the first one is called "Sentinel"

I have a solo electronica music project called Cava Grande. Here's the link if you wanna hear what it sounds like:

https://soundcloud.com/cavagrande

So it's summer of 2017 and I wanted to make a video clip for the Cava Grande track called "Sentinel". Instead I decided to make a game.

But before that here's my usual workflow as a musician, which is really a common way of going about it:

I start with some sort of harmony, some set of chords if you will. If I like it then I start layering some more harmony ideas on top of it in order to make it richer. Then I add some sort of bass line. If I want beats or some kind of percussions then I start adding those. There I have 8 bars of loop going around. Then I start expending on the idea. Add a break somewhere, and et cetera et cetera... You get the gist. Basically I create the track as I go. In the end you want to take the music where it wants to go, right?

So here's the thing: I wanted to apply this kind of workflow to game-making. Creating the game as you go. Do not plan ahead much. Just turn on the game engine you work on and start doing what you feel like doing.

And I did just that: "Sentinel".

Since this was something like a video-clip/game, the game lasts as long as the track. It's nothing new though, Bjork & Radiohead did stuff like this before. The only difference is "Sentinel" is more like a game where there are obstacles to overcome and different endings depending on how you play.



Here check it out if you wish, it's free to download:

https://santimagames.itch.io/sentinel

The game got really good reviews which made me realize that this was doable, I mean making games as an art form; A medium of self-expression.

Nevertheless there's a catch: The game needs to be small. Really small. It's very tricky to apply this kind of workflow to a larger game.

Then comes my second game, released a week ago, it's called "A Fine Mess".



Again this was initially a Gava Grande track. I still wanted to make kind of a video-clip game but it became much more.

Here's the short description of "A Fine Mess":

"You find yourself on a strange island where the world has ended. Up on the sky you see the moon shattered, a city in the distant destroyed and a mysterious woman in an age-old outfit, biding her time on the beach as if none of it happened.

As you traverse this uncanny surrounding, you start to unravel its mysteries. In contrast to a conventional adventure game, there's no hand holding or de-mystifying the story by over-explaining.

In fact, in order to piece all the puzzles, you might need to look at it beyond the game itself."

The game is in black and white, it's somewhere between a walking-simulator, horror and adventure game... And it's much bigger game than "Sentinel".

Here's the link:

https://santimagames.itch.io/a-fine-mess

Well, it costs $2 but if you PM me I can send you a download key.

I started "A Fine Mess" in a similar way as "Sentinel" but this time my initial idea was clearer. Yet it evolved to something else when it was finished. Took me about 5 months to finish it.

I don't want to spoil the game here but in the end it turned out to be an dedication to a deceased friend of mine who was also a musician. In order to figure out the meaning of the game you really need to find all the secrets (which is not so hard really. Most people finish the game with %96 completion) and google some of the clues in the game to figure out fully.

In the end, the game turned out to be a little vague. It was reviewed in Rock Paper Shotgun and dubbed as vague there anyway. They also say that this is a good thing in way but I've yet to receive a positive feedback or review.

I don't think it's a bad game but I believe people didn't quite understand the point of the game and got frustrated. I don't think anyone figured out how the game was connected to my deceased friend anyway. Maybe the game is not interesting enough that you don't feel like following up.

Is this important though? To me it's not. When you go to a gallery or a museum, you look at the paintings, you like them mainly for their composition and colors but most of them have deep meanings underneath. Such as the artists impression during a world war, a princess' expression before she was going to be executed and so on. Most of the time you do not know these details and you need to take another step to research. Well, I can say that I've visited some of the greatest museums in the world and I rarely did that. But it did not stop me from enjoying the art.

Why shouldn't this be applied to the gaming world? If the game stirs some feelings in you is it not good enough? If it doesn't that's fine of course then it means it just doesn't work on you. Just like music. To me, Nils Frahm's incredible track "Says" leaves me in tears but to someone else it could even be unbearable to listen to.

I simply did not want to make a game where you needed to collect 7 crystals to save the world from an evil over-lord. I wanted to make something else.

At this moment I'm not frustrated or angry. In game making, everything you create is experience and you definitely learn from these experiences. I'm also really happy that I could finish the game and release. I'm also enjoying this next part too, seeing how players are faring with the game, how youtubers are reacting and so on.

Conclusion; creating games as you go is tricky. You definitely need to plan ahead, yes, but I think I'll give the other method another try in the future. I just don't want my next game to be too vague, that's all

[Ordnas]

Kojima says that he does not consider his games as art, because they are commercial products and needs to conform to some standard, if I remember correctly. Even if Metal Gear Solid series are considered one of the highest form of gaming as art by most gamers.

Maybe it is too early to define game as an art medium by the mass. Movies and music were considered art after a lot of time, games came out only on the 70s.

[Peace Soft]

That's cool! I like your approach and thought process here. Something did jump out at me:

Why shouldn't this be applied to the gaming world? If the game stirs some feelings in you is it not good enough? If it doesn't that's fine of course then it means it just doesn't work on you. Just like music.

I don't think anyone figured out how the game was connected to my deceased friend anyway. Maybe the game is not interesting enough that you don't feel like following up...

Yeah that's the thing. Games force a lot more effort from the player than music does from the listener. The feel of the game, the so-called "mechanical" stuff like challenge and interaction, has its own emotional content, no matter what the story is supposed to be about. In Sentinel that's a feeling of bewilderment and dreamlike danger, which i find super engaging. The second game, not so much, apparently, but i didn't play it.

I'm a musician too and I was gonna say there's no analogue to this in music, but there is. Making a game for people to play is a lot like writing music for your bandmates to play. Damn, it really is similar, and i never thought of that til just now! Thank you for getting me thinking about it!

And keep it up; not every experiment is gonna work out, but you're on a cool path here.

Kojima says that he does not consider his games as art, because they are commercial products and needs to conform to some standard, if I remember correctly. Even if Metal Gear Solid series are considered one of the highest form of gaming as art by most gamers.

Maybe it is too early to define game as an art medium by the mass. Movies and music were considered art after a lot of time, games came out only on the 70s.

I think you missed a word in the title of the OP, and every word in the body of it

[tsameti]

In a lot of ways I'm definitely scared more of succeeding at making a game that tells the wrong message
than failing to produce a game at all.

That's not sensible though, the audience brings so much of their own perspective to any work. None of us can really control it.
Glad you have a good attitude about folks engaging with your game. Keep at it.

[tankun]

Kojima says that he does not consider his games as art, because they are commercial products and needs to conform to some standard, if I remember correctly. Even if Metal Gear Solid series are considered one of the highest form of gaming as art by most gamers.

This is hilarious coming from him, I do understand what he means by that but that brings up a deeper discussion of course. At the end of the day all art could be branded as a commercial product. You sell your music, art or the films you direct. Can you imagine spending all that time, effort and money to make a movie just for the hell of it?  

Maybe it is too early to define game as an art medium by the mass. Movies and music were considered art after a lot of time, games came out only on the 70s.

This is a very good point. I think you may be right. Maybe we are just beginning to scratch the surface here.

[tankun]

Yeah that's the thing. Games force a lot more effort from the player than music does from the listener. The feel of the game, the so-called "mechanical" stuff like challenge and interaction, has its own emotional content, no matter what the story is supposed to be about.

I never thought of it like this but you are totally right. Just like the famous Super Mario 64 story where Miyamoto and other developers spent months perfecting the movement, camera and the controls before even designing levels. It revolutionized the whole 3rd person character control system. I think you could call that art.

I'm a musician too and I was gonna say there's no analogue to this in music, but there is. Making a game for people to play is a lot like writing music for your bandmates to play. Damn, it really is similar, and i never thought of that til just now! Thank you for getting me thinking about it!

  Thank you. In my opinion, the major difference is planning ahead. In music you rarely do that unless you are a classical composer maybe.

I saw one of Jonathan Blow's interviews regarding Braid; he was talking about how he did not plan the mechanics of the game beforehand. He knew he was going to do a game about reversing time but you know the game keeps introducing new mechanics as you progress so he says that he designed those mechanics during the development. That is amazing.

And keep it up; not every experiment is gonna work out, but you're on a cool path here.

Thanks. That means a lot.

[DeirdreTerry]

YES! Games are just another form of art. So what if they are commercially available on the market? I don't even need to mention other art forms that are commercially available.
To explain the my point I would like to mention games like Assassins Creed, God of War. These games are not just made directly on a computer machine. The characters, the BG's the story, all of these are designed by pure artists who know how to involve people in their story lines. Machines are just for the execution of the characters and everything else. It starts with Art. 

[Oskuro]

Kojima says that he does not consider his games as art, because they are commercial products and needs to conform to some standard

A lot of people seem to subscribe to that idea, and yet they fail to realize that most of the greatest works of art from history were, in fact, commissioned commercial products.

What, do you really think all those classic painters did all those portraits just for kicks? Do you really think Michelangelo just one day up and decided to make a mural on the Sixtine Chapel for fun?

In my opinion, any type of work that involves creativity, regardless of field of expertise, has the potential to be art.

Whether something is eventually judged as art or not, will depend on those judging it.

[J-Snake]

Kojima excels in the art of making nonsense look epic and meaningful.

[Ordnas]

Kojima excels in the art of making nonsense look epic and meaningful.

For example Quiet is nearly naked because for a reason (no spoiler).

[eaglegamma]

I've also made a game and electronic music like that (LifeFLOW3D). I agree with you that it can be difficult yet rewarding. There's a balance, I don't think any game is "just art" or "just business", I think that each game blends the two to different degrees...

[doghouse]

Conclusion; creating games as you go is tricky. You definitely need to plan ahead, yes, but I think I'll give the other method another try in the future. I just don't want my next game to be too vague, that's all

High five to a fellow speccy fan!

I'll never forget the good old days of BASIC.


Game development is more an umbrella that holds many differing art forms - music, as an obvious example.  And really, if a movie can be considered art, then so can games.  It is almost ludicrous not to consider games as a form of art.

Anyway, in many disciplines of art, vagueness is generally not considered something you want in most cases.

But then, it would really depend on what your goals are for any project you're creating. 

Vagueness is better suited if you're not trying to appeal to a wide audience - to be more 'arty-farty'.

Vagueness is poor communication and art surely is about communicating is some way, no?

And vagueness is not the same as abstract.


The interesting thing about an art disicpline - individualistically - is that you can 'pants' it.  Can work for drawing/painting/writing, for example.  I don't think it's particularly efficient, but it works for many.  No right, no wrong, yeah?!

Taking the pants approach to something that draws on many different disciplines is a recipe for disaster. Because they'll all be intertwined together.  Not only would this, in most cases, lead to an unfinished game, but also a lot of time wasted (even if the project was finished).  And well planned games take long enough as it is!

I'm definitely with you: plan, plan, plan, and plan some more.

[tankun]

Vagueness is poor communication and art surely is about communicating is some way, no?

And vagueness is not the same as abstract.

I think this is the key point here. There's a fine line between being vague and being abstract.

Vagueness might derive from not thinking everything through or just being lazy.

Also making an abstract game is really tricky, come to think of it.

As you've pointed out that since games use a variety of different art forms, trying to make a game both abstract and meaningful is very difficult. Every asset you use in a game, from music to graphics will evoke a certain feeling such as joy, suspense or horror. It's not exactly like looking at a Picasso painting. There's much more information given to you here.

[Ordnas]

Ernst Gombrich in "The Story of Art" wrote that "There really is no such thing as Art. There are only artists." Art may mean different things in different times and places, and Art with a capital A has no real meaning.

Any sort of self expression can be abstract or vague, as long as there is some sort of content as allegory or symbolism in the context. Every word in a book has a meaning, as every shot in a movie, not because "it is cool", but because the artist wants to tell you something.

[Will Sykes]

I think there is a problem with asking the question "is something art". Its such a poorly defined question that its better really to ask "do people like this thing". The way in which they like it may vary a lot, but ultimately i think what's important is just that.

Unfortunately you cant even really ask if something is "good" or not, you can simply ask how many people like it and for what reason. I think that a good designer will make a product/thing and achieve the result that was originally intended (they may have wanted lots of people to like it, or they may have simply intended for a few people to like it). The quality of a product should be measured this way in my opinion.

However, even that is irrelevant. If i personally like something, I will just say its good, and thats enough for me