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[Ordnas]

True, I do not think that someone can enjoy frustration. Pausing the game and change difficulty on the fly is already a good way to scales down the game if is too difficult, and who seeks challenge can boost the difficulty when necessary.

[Aghko]

Here my short answer -> One doesn't like when it itches, but enjoys the relieve of scratching when it happens. 

[beetleking22]

After playing so many zeldas, metroidvanias and zelda like games.. I came up conclusion... People dont hate challenging sections if they are done well and fairly.. same goes with easy difficulty but if its done badly people start to get frustrated. Here are some examples. Alundra had some fun puzzles solve even if they had some challenges and easy parts but there were many annoying puzzles because  The wonky perspective and precision jumping and punishment when you fail in puzzles.. Oracle of ages had also some bad design choices in dungeon.. for example In Mermaid cave after you have finished 2/5 of the dungeon you need to go in future to finish another part of the dungeons but it requires you to get fetch quest key which are itself very annoying side quest. It kills the pacing and frustrate player to hell... Backtracking was also overused   ver crown dungeon which was very frustrating.  Many people like Link between world even tough it was easy game but mostly because  its was very well designed game with less frustration.. Its bad design choice which make people suffer.. not the easy or challenging part.

[Ordnas]

Metroidvania and expecially japanese games relies on grinding and backtracking, is an "old" design choice that it is appealing expecially if you short in budget, so you can reuse assets and make the game last longer. Japanese audience like that design choice, probably because of their way of playing and maybe because of their culture (playing in small break of time).

[AlienplayGames]

If player understands what he is supposed to do and how (if you teach him properly) then the game is just hard and a lot of people like these types of games. These games give you a sense of accomplishment which makes them very rewarding.
But, if you just throw random things at player when he doesn't understand any of it, it's frustrating and not fun and I consider that to be a bad design.

[beetleking22]

Metroidvania and expecially japanese games relies on grinding and backtracking, is an "old" design choice that it is appealing expecially if you short in budget, so you can reuse assets and make the game last longer. Japanese audience like that design choice, probably because of their way of playing and maybe because of their culture (playing in small break of time).

But are Zelda games usually designed for everybody? Not just Japanese audience in mind? I think console limitation played big part with some frustrated design choices in those GBA zelda games. The newer zelda games are pretty streamlined compared to older days.

[beetleking22]

If player understands what he is supposed to do and how (if you teach him properly) then the game is just hard and a lot of people like these types of games. These games give you a sense of accomplishment which makes them very rewarding.
But, if you just throw random things at player when he doesn't understand any of it, it's frustrating and not fun and I consider that to be a bad design.

Its not that simple. Even if you teach player the mechanics.. The mechanics and challenge could itself be badly designed which also frustrate player a lot.

[Raptor85]

Metroidvania and expecially japanese games relies on grinding and backtracking, is an "old" design choice that it is appealing expecially if you short in budget, so you can reuse assets and make the game last longer. Japanese audience like that design choice, probably because of their way of playing and maybe because of their culture (playing in small break of time).

classic metroidvanias (specifically the big ones like super metroid and sotn) didn't really rely on grinding though, and actual backtracking was minimal (generally you'd get piped around in a circle to be near a hub where the next area branches from), both also had small intentional "sequence breaks" you could do (ignoring the big unintentional ones you could also do) with advanced moves and careful exploration that let you bypass even MORE backtracking and get ahead faster.  Classic metroidvanias like this you could almost visualize more as a string of "chapters" than a string of specific gating items, where in each "chapter" of the game there's a certain set of bosses and items you can get/things you can accomplish, but with advanced moves some are optional and harder paths might be used to do it in different orders.  For instance in super metroid you can get the spazer early for a large damage increase if you know how to walljump, removing the need to go down, get the high jump boots, and come back up.  Shinespark also gives you access to a lot of early game items hidden up high, so you can get some etanks and missiles much earlier. Sotn has fewer intended sequence breaks like this but instead has a lot of advanced combat tricks that allow you to skip collection of powerups and get more levels, a lot of weapons actually have hidden power moves, and some have high damage combos.  Combined with stopwatch you can quite easily kill a bunch of the earlier bosses making travel through the castle MUCH easier.

It's part of why I didn't like axiom verge, you literally ended up walking back and forth countless times through areas you'd already been in and it was SUPER linear, you absolutely had to get every item in a very specific order to progress.  So many modern metroidvanias are just so freaking linear, you might as well just replace the items with colored keycards.

I do agree with a bunch of people in this thread too, I think frustration isn't really what you should aim for.  challenge might at times get frustrating if you continually fail but you don't want the challenge ITSELF to be frustrating.  For instance, a frustrating challenge would be a janky ice physics jumping puzzle over an instadeath pit that starts you back at the beginning of the level, where a challenge that might CAUSE frustration would be a difficult enemy that you just barely keep losing to.  The first is frustration at the game, the second is frustration at yourself.

[andyfromiowa]

I don't think a designer should set out with the intent to create frustration. That said, I think games that are challenging to the right audience can easily be frustrating to others.

It can be difficult to create the "right" amount of challenge in a game and I think if players are enjoying a game overall, they might push through some frustrating moments to complete the experience.

[Katuko]

I think it is fine to have a certain degree of challenge. After all, what is so hard it's frustrating to some will for others simply be an incentive to learn and get better at the game. Improving your mechanical skill to a point where previously difficult enemies, levels, and puzzles become trivial is a sign of mastery.

'Frustrating' is however not generally a word I would want people to use when describing a game. Frustrating implies that the game is unfair - that it requires an unreasonable amount of knowledge or mechanical skill to make up for its challenge, that it's too long-winded and mired with boring tasks to be fun, that it has a bad control scheme or that the character is sluggish/hard to steer, or perhaps even that the game is buggy. Such issues should be eliminated as early as possible.

[Dre Reid]

I like a good challenge, i dont like anything frustrating its like a grand waste of time.

[Ordnas]

Challenging without being frustrating is something quite utopistic to achieve.

[Aghko]

Challenging without being frustrating is something quite utopistic to achieve.

That is not right. Frustration comes from failure without understanding or power to correct it. If a player is put in a situation where the reason of failure is or appear to be random will produce frustration. Same if there is not possible to understand what requirements or skills should be improved to overcome the challenge.

In the case you get a challenge where you understand what is going on and where to try to improve should be fine. A good example of this is Baba is You. You get a lot of challenge in that game, but you also get to understand easily what is making you fail, plus you know there is a logical solution to the level that keeps you engage without getting mad.

[Ordnas]

Frustration also comes from failure if you understand how to fix the problem but you don't have the requirements to solve it, example is an action game like Sekiro, where you understand the pattern of an enemy but you lack in skills like reflexes and coordination, even if you watched a YouTube video on how to kill that enemy.

[Raptor85]

Throwing yourself an an enemy you can't beat with your reflexes in a game like Sekiro though shows me you DONT know how to fix the problem, Sekiro for instance has a leveling system that, if a fight is too hard for you, you can always try other things and come back later when it's easier. (just like all of fromsoft's games really).  This frustration though isn't really the fault of the game at this point but in the player ignoring the game's rules and trying to follow a guide that assumes they're a bit better than they are, and you can't get rid of that, it happens in all games, people will do their own thing...we all know THAT person that skips all the dialog first time playing than complains that they don't understand what's going on or where to go next.

[Ordnas]

The only way to fix the problem is throwing yourself to the enemy to gain skills, so there will be always frustration because you must lose in order to learn from your mistakes. Also in late game happens to die with minor enemies, even if you know by heart their pattern, but for many reasons and variables (not enough attention, lack of reflexes in that particular situation or just misfortune).
Sekiro is very different from Dark Soul because the levellig system doesn't help too much the player to be stronger, most depends on the player skills.
The frustration is not a fault, is an inevitable thing of challenging, the solution is to find the right balance, but every person is different so better to add a little of frustration to add a big bound to the challenge and avoid to bore the more skilled one.