next »

[Alex May]

Great questions! Thanks for getting me thinking on this :-)
The "why" section of my website explains my motives for *making* the game: yes, ultimately, I am making these games because I want to see people come to know God a bit better (whether they are already followers or not), and I believe that the way that will happen is through the Bible.

This just annoys me. Make the game and have religious characters or settings or whatever, fine; as soon as you start preaching you become my enemy. The worst thing about religion is that it makes you want to make other people believe what you believe. It causes wars, what you are doing. Let people come to your way of thinking independently. Passively.

[Pencerkoff]

Hello this is Pencerkoff

It causes wars, what you are doing.

Yeah, quit causing wars, Andy. 

-PENCERKOFF

[andygeers]

as soon as you start preaching you become my enemy.

Is your pejorative use of the word "preaching" confined to any particular model of communication? Does any attempt to engage in rational dialogue about the subject of spiritual things make you my enemy merely because of the fact that I believe in such a thing as universal truth? (that if this building is on fire for me then it's also on fire for you so it's reasonable to want to persuade you of the case for urgent evacuation)

But now I think of it, I am inclined to declare war on your country if you don't buy my game!!

[Alex May]

Nah you're fine, just ignore me, I'm in a bad mood.

There's no way you'd pass my filter anyway, if it were overtly religious then it would offend my sensibilities and seem preachy; if it were more subtle then I'd end up accusing you of being subversive. All I need to do is avert my own eyes and we're all good in the 'hood.

[Cthulhu32]

I am also an atheist, and this sort of game topic strikes a couple of interesting points for me. I can understand wanting to make these games for people who also believe in similar topics. If you make games because you're passionate about them, and you want to show people you have similar interests with, thats awesome. But for me there's a HUGE chalk mark that you go over if you start promoting your games on sites that you know contradict your views. Freedom of speech and expression = awesome, indie games couldn't exist without it. Make your own website, post on Christian boards, draw in some crowds of fellow believers, awesome.

But I agree entirely with Paul and Alex, this topic is pushed way too far to the side of "this is the truth, those billions of Muslims and Jews and Atheists and Hindus and every other religion are all wrong." I feel like if I played your game I'd be reading through a pamphlet of why I don't know anything and I shouldn't believe in evolution, science, hard facts, genetics, generations of persecuted scientists who are killed because they don't believe in "the word", all those lovely things that get me all sorts of ranty. A good example of my last statement, because I know a lot of Christians say "no that was a long time ago", is Alan Turing, one of the brightest men of the 20th century, pretty much the father of computers and AI. He was persecuted because he was gay, and he was told they would give him electro-shock therapy to cure him of his "Disease", and rather than be a brain-dead idiot to fit in with everyone else he killed himself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing

I also agree with Derek, it'd be pretty cool to see a literal interpretation of the absolutely insane stories in the bible, talking animals, summoning bears, making people out of ribs, finding apples that make you really smart, the list just goes on.

Also quick history lesson, did you know Christianity was based largely on several forms of Paganism? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism I've been watching Rick Steve's Travel to Europe shows with my wife, getting ideas about where we are going to go, and a lot really old Christian holy grounds have pagan artifacts dating from before the rise of Christianity.

[Radix]

(that if this building is on fire for me then it's also on fire for you so it's reasonable to want to persuade you of the case for urgent evacuation)

Funny, I can't smell any smoke. Maybe you're just delusional.

[moi]

I'm an atheist to, but as long as I'm not obliged to play the game, it's fine with me. I mean, I can ignore the thread and not turn it into a forum war.

[Pencerkoff]

Hello this is Pencerkoff

Andy just wanted to make a game promoting christian morals and you instantly lump him in with persecuting gay people?  I think we all can name some shitty things Christians do, but saying Andy is like those Christians is stereotyping him.  Andy shouldn't have to only post on Christian boards, last time I checked TIGSource didn't discriminate against religion.

There's a point where you can say "I don't want to hear anymore" and walk away, but he hasn't even really said anything other than he wants to make a bible game.

LET UP 

-PENCERKOFF

[Cthulhu32]

Hello this is Pencerkoff

Andy just wanted to make a game promoting christian morals and you instantly lump him in with persecuting gay people?  I think we all can name some shitty things Christians do, but saying Andy is like those Christians is stereotyping him.  Andy shouldn't have to only post on Christian boards, last time I checked TIGSource didn't discriminate against religion.

There's a point where you can say "I don't want to hear anymore" and walk away, but he hasn't even really said anything other than he wants to make a bible game.

LET UP 

-PENCERKOFF

I give in to Pencerkoff's wise words. Continue.

[Angelo]

I'm antireligous / antitheist. My view on this matter is that since you're pretty straightforward about the setting and goal of your game, people will really know what they're getting into and only those that are interested will play it. As for children, the parents should be responsible for what games they play. If they want to teach them the bible, even through a game, then good for them. They can even teach them that elephants fly, for all I care, as long as the kid doesn't grow up to burn down the building I live in because my neighbor is a doctor who happens to perform abortions.

On the other hand, if you made a game and promoted it as a SciFi Adventure with Parallel Universes, Alternate Timelines, Love Triangles etc, and then trying to shove religion down my throat by subtly slipping religious dogma in the game's plot or blatantly presenting religious truths as fact, then we would have a situation. Noting a couple of films that tickled some sensitive spots of mine in a way like that (possible spoilers, highlight to read): "Jacob's Ladder" (when you're fighting to stay alive, just forget about people who care about you and will miss you, and give up!) and "The Nines" (unconditional devotion to deities even if they are screw ups).

That said, I most likely wouldn't have a problem with your game. Needless to say, I'd pretty much steer clear off it, as will most people like me.

Religious stuff aside, good luck!

[Pencerkoff]

Hello this is Pencerkoff

Hello this is Pencerkoff

Andy just wanted to make a game promoting christian morals and you instantly lump him in with persecuting gay people?  I think we all can name some shitty things Christians do, but saying Andy is like those Christians is stereotyping him.  Andy shouldn't have to only post on Christian boards, last time I checked TIGSource didn't discriminate against religion.

There's a point where you can say "I don't want to hear anymore" and walk away, but he hasn't even really said anything other than he wants to make a bible game.

LET UP 

-PENCERKOFF

I give in to Pencerkoff's wise words. Continue.

 

Also : Ecclesiates 1:12-18 "Wisdom is Meaningless"

-PENCERKOFF

[astrospoon]

I'm a practicing Christian as well, and in fact, am right now preparing to teach a Bible Study. I think that there is room for some intelligently designed Christian games for a few reasons:

1) Christians like good games too- I enjoy many many violent video games. But it is despite the violence, not because of it. It is worth exploring non-violent alternatives that are still awesome. (Note: there are many MANY normal games already doing this, and Bible games including violence could still be accurate to their source material as well.)

2) It is unexplored territory- We have games based on Mythology, Pirates, Sci-Fi, Westerns, Film Noir, WWII, etc, etc. The Bible is a large, well known, and relatively untapped source of fantastic settings, stories and characters.

3) It has proven to be profitable- See: Passion of the Christ. If a good, genuinely fun and moving game about Christianity was released, it would make tons of cash and get played all over the world.

4) It would let people view what the Bible says apart from who says it- The Bible is a book. Christians, including myself, believe it to be God's teaching to us. But anyone can read it. I think a good portion of Christians don't give people time to actually learn for themselves what we believe and why. This separates the message of the Bible from the over zealous, hypocritical, and sometimes hateful Christians that are all over the media.

5) It would help spread God's word- This is going to be the touchy one obviously. In a very real sense though, you cannot separate the stories and teachings of the Bible from the essential truths and over arching themes of the Bible. Now, you may not agree with them - I fully expect that many players of such a game would not agree with much of it - but I would think that the game could still be enjoyable.

For instance, Jesus teaches that he is the Son of God, and the only way to the Father. This is what one would call a "critical plot point" of the Bible. There is no good way to dance around this claim. Now, you can play the game accepting that Jesus is a crazy madman teacher, or you can play the game accepting what he says about himself as truth. But the game shouldn't change the story so it sits better with the player.

Note that I am not arguing that the game should be "preachy" at all. I think that would make the game pretty terrible for everyone involved. I'm just arguing that the game should stick to what the Bible actually says and not try to soften it up for potential players who would be offended.

And to address a point made earlier- Yeah, the above claim does indeed refute what all other world religions believe. But they all believe different things! Of course they will conflict. And of course, God either created the universe, or he didn't. Jesus either was his son, or he wasn't. Allah is either the one true god or he isn't. Reincarnation happens when we die, or it doesn't. There is no God and all religions are false, or one of them is right. But they can't all be right. The strangest thing is to believe that everyone can somehow be right in the end.

In summation: If the game was actually fun to play and used the Bible as it's basis, I think it would be great and informative. If the game is made trying to convert people, it will be terrible, and no one will play it. (Christian or non-Christian) Games are made for entertainment, and if they fail at that, they aren't very useful at all. A God of War style game about Samson could be awesome, and not very preachy at all. And I bet it would get more people reading the Bible than some crappy Bible quiz game.  

[team_q]

For Trojan Horsing biblical teachings into pop culture, look at Twilight.

[CK]

i remember, back when i was a christian, picking up catechumen.  made by these "people".  i think the only reason i really liked it was because i am fond of both FPS games and quake-era graphics.  it's not the greatest game, but as a kid i enjoyed it.  success?

[astrospoon]

For Trojan Horsing biblical teachings into pop culture, look at Twilight.

Yeah, I am totally not in favor of the "sneak attack" - I'm not sure how egregious Twilight is though.. The Naria series is practically a retelling of the Bible however, people should probably know that before getting their kids into it. (Interestingly enough, The Golden Compass was written as the atheist "response" to the Narnia sneak attack.. heh.)

Although, authors do have to put some of themselves into their work. It would be strange if none of a person's beliefs ever affected their art. (One could argue that the art would be totally worthless at that point)

[Derek]

Well, this discussion is making me interested in trying to read through the Bible again, so that's good, right?  And maybe play a little

on Nestopia.

3) It has proven to be profitable- See: Passion of the Christ. If a good, genuinely fun and moving game about Christianity was released, it would make tons of cash and get played all over the world.

Firstly, don't you mean "prophetable?" (insert canned laughter)

Secondly, please don't make the game like PotC... for one thing, this was probably the second most gruesome torture movie I've ever seen (after Hostel).  Especially considering how much money the movie made, I practically consider it an exploitation film.  And I normally enjoy exploitation films.  Just, not when they're used to spread religious beliefs.

Yeah, for being probably the best known thinker in the world, it's sad to me that Jesus's teachings that would actually do some good for living people NOW seem overshadowed by the particular facts of his death and the claims that he is the son of God (however you take that to mean).  I think a more plausible scenario than Jesus being the supernatural son of God and the Bible being literal truth is that he was a very charismatic man with good morals and excellent oratory skills and the people around him either 1. deified him because they loved him, or 2. saw the power in his words and deified him to exploit him (i.e. there may be a bit of marketing involved).  Probably both.  Either way, I think it takes something away from his actual teachings, some of which I heartily endorse.

Basically, I feel like if Barack Obama were alive 2,000 years ago, when there was no radio, television, or internet, and the press was controlled by kings, churches, and word of mouth... it's possible he'd have a religion based around him, too (some people would argue that he does even today!).

Which is not to say the crucifixion should be ignored.  I'm just suggesting that you don't make the entire game based around that.  Especially since everyone, even non-believers, knows it already.

[Matt Thorson]

On the subject of target audience:

If your goal is conversion (and let's face it, "Letting people get to know the Christian God better" is just a nice way of saying "conversion"), it would be very unwise to target any audience other than children, would it not?

I'd assume your "conversion rate" would be much higher among children than adults, just like is the case with other Christian media and events ("Jesus camps" target exclusively children as far as I know).

Unless your goal is more to rationalize or defend Christianity, then you'd want to shoot for adults I suppose.

(For context on my advice: As far as personal beliefs go, you can probably safely lump me in with Derek as

but

)

[Oddball]

Secondly, please don't make the game like PotC... for one thing, this was probably the second most gruesome torture movie I've ever seen (after Hostel).  Especially considering how much money the movie made, I practically consider it an exploitation film.  And I normally enjoy exploitation films.  Just, not when they're used to spread religious beliefs.

You can't have a game based on a story from the bible without it being gruesome. Have you ever read that thing? It's brutal from start to finish. And I don't just mean the 'bad' guys either. The 'heroes' of the stories are just as sadistic. I mean who could forget Lot offering his virgin daughters to be gang raped by an angry mob just save his own skin. This is the man that the LORD found worthy enough to save from the destruction of Sodom. This is why you find most religious games/films/stories focus on morals, or only touch on the general themes. If they actually used the true stories from the bible people would be horrified.

[Matt Thorson]

For Trojan Horsing biblical teachings into pop culture, look at Twilight.

WHAT!?

Really?

[Pencerkoff]

Hello this is Pencerkoff

If they actually used the true stories from the bible people would be horrified.

From what I've seen in this gaming community, the bible wouldn't horrify us. 

Course, there was that one chick from Judges that pounded a stake through a guy's head into the ground.  Not sure what kind of a game could stem from that though...

Also I need a description of Twilight Christian themes, that sounds interesting.

-PENCERKOFF