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[team_q]

WHAT!?

Really?

Well, the book of Mormon, which isn't the Bible, unless you are Mormon.

Twilight Preaches Mormonism

Twilight's hidden Morality Plays

That and more mainstream Christian views i.e.: abortion and premarital sex is bad, marital sex will be really painful and is for the production of children.

[Pencerkoff]

Hello this is Pencerkoff

Did you look at that first link?  It was a Christian complaining about how Twilight had various things in they didn't feel was appropriate for their children to read until they were old enough to understand the fictional side to the book.  The mormonism comparison seemed tacked on, but granted I barely understood any of it.

I've heard The Matrix has a bunch of Christian undertones, but I don't think I caught on to many of them.  Too busy enjoying bullet-time... ahhh to be in 1999 again.

-PENCERKOFF

[Juhkystar]

  Wow, this topic is drawing a lot of fire.

I see what andy is trying to do now, and I just hope it actually turns out to be fun. As astrospoon stated before, Christians enjoy playing video games. Heck, I just had a group of my friends come over last night and play MoH, CoD, and Rock Band - none of which are very Christian-like at all. But all the "christian" games I've seen seem to suck. There are no innovative or new things in them at all. Like 'Guitar Praise' and 'Dance Praise' which basically just ripped off their mainstream counterparts. Because andy mentioned that he intends to do a monkey island style game (Which is still a fairly broad genre), I really hope it turns out good.

And dude, you guys should read Second Samuel for some awesome storyline.

But seriously, can we stay on the topic of, "OMG GAME" instead of "OMG RELIGON"? We should be focusing more on gameplay than the motive for making. I doubt any of you people would have any qualms about playing a openly Buddhist game. Oh wait, Korean MMORPG'S! Stay on topic!

(And as to Twilight and The Matrix being religious, the Harry Potter series could be interpreted as a analogy of certain parts of Christianity although the author is an Athiest. Or you could go the opposite route and point out all sorts of Wicka (sp?) references. Practically anything can be made to look religious or not.)

[And I admire Derek's openess. He obviously doesn't agree with Christianity, but he's being polite and respectful of it nonetheless.]

Dangit, I need to stop trying to answer two pages of posts. 

~Juhkystar

[astrospoon]

Secondly, please don't make the game like PotC... for one thing, this was probably the second most gruesome torture movie I've ever seen (after Hostel).  Especially considering how much money the movie made, I practically consider it an exploitation film.  And I normally enjoy exploitation films.  Just, not when they're used to spread religious beliefs.

I'm not in favor of that kind of game at all. I think that the movie just proved that there is an audience for Christian based media, and that the niche is large enough to make a serious exploration in the game-space worthwhile. I wasn't trying to endorse the movie which I too think is too gruesome. I think the crucifixion would make a pretty bad game from a practical standpoint, as the interaction and choices would be fairly limited.

More interesting might be a game where you play as one of his early followers, traveling an open early world escaping and avoiding danger as you attempt to spread the Gospel, debate with the Pharisees, flee getting stoned for your beliefs, escape sinking ships, run messages to and from illegal underground early churches, break imprisoned Christians out of Roman jails, sneaking food to slaves, etc.. The early church was like an underground syndicate with all sorts of cool things happening, and could make for a great game. I think people would be surprised.

Yeah, for being probably the best known thinker in the world, it's sad to me that Jesus's teachings that would actually do some good for living people NOW seem overshadowed by the particular facts of his death and the claims that he is the son of God (however you take that to mean).

I think that many people like a good portion of Jesus' teachings. They are indeed wise, powerful and loving words that any reasonably moral person would agree with. I just think it is strange to accept some of his teaching (as reported in the Bible) as truthful, but to set aside some of the more uncomfortable things he said. Now, of course, you can disagree with the actual content of the Bible- but at that point you are just pulling out the good quotes and throwing out the larger context of the gospels.

If your goal is conversion (and let's face it, "Letting people get to know the Christian God better" is just a nice way of saying "conversion"), it would be very unwise to target any audience other than children, would it not?

The point of making a Christian game shouldn't be conversion. Really, just using the Bible as a setting for a game would be interesting in its own right, as (hopefully) my above example illustrates. If the source material is the Bible though, God is going to be in it, and people will learn what the Bible says about him. Otherwise the game wouldn't be about the Bible. I think it is unfair to imply that any game based on the Bible in any way is then just "letting people get to know the Christian God better" and therefore some underhanded manipulation of things.

[redoubtable troutbot]

I hope your game will teach the fact that the bible makes absolutely no sense at all, and to hope to derive any useful knowledge or morals from it is just silly.

Now, a game teaching critical thinking, that would be great.

[team_q]

Did you look at that first link?  It was a Christian complaining about how Twilight had various things in they didn't feel was appropriate for their children to read until they were old enough to understand the fictional side to the book.  The mormonism comparison seemed tacked on, but granted I barely understood any of it.

I suppose the first link is a little on the flaky side, I was trying to put forward some arguments on different sides.

I've heard The Matrix has a bunch of Christian undertones, but I don't think I caught on to many of them.  Too busy enjoying bullet-time... ahhh to be in 1999 again.

I guess I like to think of my fiction to be secretive and multifaceted. Perhaps I give things to much credit, but the world is a more fun place if you believe that everyone operates with esoteric motives, I would presume that someone such a handle as 'Pencerkoff' would have a couple of secrets.

More interesting might be a game where you play as one of his early followers, traveling an open early world escaping and avoiding danger as you attempt to spread the Gospel, debate with the Pharisees, flee getting stoned for your beliefs, escape sinking ships, run messages to and from illegal underground early churches, break imprisoned Christians out of Roman jails, sneaking food to slaves, etc.. The early church was like an underground syndicate with all sorts of cool things happening, and could make for a great game. I think people would be surprised.

You should check out MDickie's The YOU testiment it has you as one of Christ's early followers, its pretty interesting.

[Μarkham]

I'm a Mormon, I attend BYU, and I don't know anyone who takes Twilight seriously, or at least admits that they do.  The first link is funny.  I never knew there were "elite" Mormons. 
I always thought the books were just wish-fulfillment Mary-Sue fiction crap, not some kind of Trojan-horse indoctrination book.

[Derek]

Just want to say this is a great discussion so far and I'm glad everyone's being relatively mature about it!  I'd like to continue it, if people don't mind.

I think that many people like a good portion of Jesus' teachings. They are indeed wise, powerful and loving words that any reasonably moral person would agree with. I just think it is strange to accept some of his teaching (as reported in the Bible) as truthful, but to set aside some of the more uncomfortable things he said. Now, of course, you can disagree with the actual content of the Bible- but at that point you are just pulling out the good quotes and throwing out the larger context of the gospels.

Well, the larger context for me is that the books were all purportedly written by different men, and then re-packaged and re-translated and paraphrased many many times over the years to suit the needs of various kings and churches.  At least, that's my limited understanding of it (I am not a Biblical historian or a theologian).  To assume that they are the direct words of Jesus and the direct words of God after being passed through a 2,000 year-old game of telephone seems illogical to me... especially considering what some of the people playing the game have believed (e.g. that the universe revolves around the Earth, that the Earth is only a few thousand years old, etc.).

Christianity assumes that Jesus is irrevocably tied to God and that his life and teachings wouldn't be meaningful without God.  But that seems almost a slight to him, in my opinion.  I think that, in all likelihood, he was "just" a great man and a unique individual for his time... and the things he said that were good and true are intrinsic to human nature, just like any wise sayings.  A lot of the teachings stand on their own merit and the reason they can be understood even by non-believers is not because they are the words of God, but because they're the words of a charismatic human being with a lot of empathy and vigor for life.  To me, that's a lot more compelling than all this stuff about being the son of God and the Kingdom of Heaven and all that.

And there are and have been a lot of other great thinkers the religious world could be learning about, too, but don't, for the simple reason that they are not considered prophets or deities.  Like Confucius or Nietzsche or whoever.  A lot of the fundamental lessons of these great men (and women) are very similar.  And there's also mathematics and science and art and games, with which we know we can directly improve people's lives, and which one could much more easily and logically argue are direct gateways to understanding Nature or the Universe or God or whatever you want to believe.  There's just a lot more intuitive ways of approaching the question of life than to debate whether Jesus is supernatural or not... it bugs me that that part is so important to Christians.  The parts that are true in the Bible ring true immediately.  And the rest should be presented as is, without too much extra moralizing (imho).

That it's in an interesting story is cool, though, so I wouldn't mind playing a game about it!  But no, I probably would still not feel any closer to the Christian God after playing an awesome Bible game than I would Dumbledore after I read Harry Potter.  If that's the intention, then I think it would fail.  When I want to play a game and be close to "God" these days, I head out to the arcade and play a really good, challenging action game like Metal Slug 3 or Mushihimesama Futari very intensely!

[Angelo]

They are indeed wise, powerful and loving words that any reasonably moral person would agree with.

You mean like...

"Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law (Luke 12:51-53)."

...and...

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple (Luke 14:26)."

Indeed, a clear demonstration of love and morality.

[Radix]

It's the really nasty parts of the bible that would make for the best game. Distasteful, gory, amoral at best, tonnes of action and antihero appeal. That game is never going to be made by anyone with a 'spread god's word' agenda.

And I think there's a conflict right there, between wanting to create a good game and wanting to propagate a message, when the message is as specific as following a particular religion. One of those objectives is going to compromise the other. (And I'm fine with that.)

[Zaratustra]

I mean who could forget Lot offering his virgin daughters to be gang raped by an angry mob just save his own skin.

He was protecting his guests goddamnit at least read the book you're making fun of

[Radix]

He was protecting his guests goddamnit at least read the book you're making fun of

Maybe he was confusing that with one of the other stories about how expendable biblical daughters are when you have houseguests.

You might be forgetting that Lot's guests were angels who at no point were like "uh dude don't worry about it we don't even have buttholes".

[andygeers]

Guys, I love how civil this conversation is - this forum is awesome!

But I've missed so much whilst being asleep, where to even begin! I think it's probably best if I limit my replies to ones that actually pertain to games and my game in particular, rather than the general ones about who Jesus is (given that this is a gamedev forum after all!)

It's the really nasty parts of the bible that would make for the best game. Distasteful, gory, amoral at best, tonnes of action and antihero appeal. That game is never going to be made by anyone with a 'spread god's word' agenda.

I find this a really interesting comment - are you suggesting that Christians who take the Bible literally are ashamed of passages like this and that they cause problems for them? Or the Genesis example with Lot (I think the original poster was confused - Lot was the guy whose two virgin daughters drugged him and raped him whilst he was asleep so that they could have kids!)

Personally, as someone who absolutely thinks the Bible is God's word, I love the gritty realism of the Old Testament - the people who wrote these books weren't ashamed to write it all down, so why should I be ashamed to read it or believe it? Someone else has already mentioned some of the awesome moments in Judges, like Jael smashing a tentpeg through the enemy general's forehead after lulling him into a false sense of security by feeding him and giving him a place to sleep; but there's plenty more, like Ehud the left-handed assassin whose target Eglon was so fat that his blade sank into his belly so far that you couldn't even see the handle any more.

To assume that I wouldn't make games about fantastic passages about these just because I believe the Bible is true and to be shared is crazy talk!!

That probably relates to this quote:

If your goal is conversion .. it would be very unwise to target any audience other than children, would it not?

I'd assume your "conversion rate" would be much higher among children than adults, just like is the case with other Christian media and events ("Jesus camps" target exclusively children as far as I know).

The problem with this argument is that it assumes that the best way to convert someone is to brainwash them, since surely few people of sound mind would ever choose to become a Christian in later life? It also assumes that raw numbers is my metric for success. But Jesus taught in the parable of the sower that the success rates for the spread of the word will be pretty low (lots of the sower's seeds fall on rocky ground or the birds snatch it away or it just fails to grow) but that's ok! My job is just to be faithful in my task of explaining the Bible in an understandable and engaging way, perhaps clearing out obstacles that prevent people listening where appropriate, but never to try and "force" that person to believe what they read. That's between them and God, and I trust God to take care of himself in that fight.

[mrfredman]

I've always wanted to make a game based on the old-testament. Old-Testament god is so angry, vengeful, and somewhat arbitrary, and I think it would be great to play a game where you had to deal with all of god's bizarre requests. The old-testament is also chock-full of sex, debauchery, and violence, that would make great subject matter for a game. You could raise and lead armies as Abraham, slaying your neighbors, making sacrifices for powerups, and for bonus points you can pretend to sacrifice your son! Don't even get me started on Lot, to be honest, I think brad neeley really sums up the story of Lot the best, watch this video if you haven't seen it before. It's hilarious, and mildly accurate.

I could go on and on about how many old-testament stories would make for good video game subject matter; Noah collecting animals and resources to build an ark then dealing with bickering children and animals while attempting to navigate. Jacob's quest to find a wife, wrestling with angels, and deceiving Egyptians. Joseph escaping from slavery, making prophecies and managing Egpyt's resources, and that's just Genesis. Think about what you could do with Moses and exodus! And then you could make prophecy expansion packs; run away from god as Jonah! Get oppressed and hounded as Lot, prophecises while hiding from Babylonians as Ezekial! This is a golden money cow ripe for milking!

I'm not gonna get to deeply involved with the debate about the new testament, as I'm Jewish and not too knowledgeable on the subject. My opinion: Jesus said some cool and reasonable stuff (as well as some run-of-the-mill biblical weirdness), and often the new testament makes way more sense as a guide for life than the old-testament, but following anything unflinchingly and without thought is ridiculous. Whatever religion you are, just use your  brain, decide what teachings will help you to improve your life, and take the rest of it for what it is; 2000+ year old books written as a tool for managing large populations of illiterate and mostly stupid peasants without any sort of moral compass.

[Radix]

I find this a really interesting comment - are you suggesting that Christians who take the Bible literally are ashamed of passages like this and that they cause problems for them?

No, I'm saying that exposing people to the horrors and injustices your religion is based on is probably counter-productive to a conversion motivation.

You talk about the "awesome" parts. What about the rest?

Edit: fixed the redundant part.

[Alex May]

Noah collecting animals and resources to build an ark then dealing with bickering children and animals while attempting to navigate.

[Pencerkoff]

Hello this is Pencerkoff

Getting back to morals in video games... has anyone noted an instance of helping someone in a video game that had any effect on you?  A very basic game mechanic as part of an RPG is to find items for random people who will reward you when you bring it to them (not that they said anything about a reward).  I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that being altruistic in video games has absolutely no bearing on my morality in the real world.

Is there any way to get beyond that?  My only thought is maybe MMORPGs have some amount of actual person to person situations, not that I play those ever.

Even if you have a game with some kind of "karma" system, all that may teach is that doing well unto others = success.  Maybe some others can comment on this, but is that even really a Christian value?  My thought is that a fundamental part of serving God(for a Christian) is that you give up any Earthly desires.  I can't think of how to implement that into a game.

Hopefully I'm not discouraging your game, Andy.  If you were down with sharing some more details about what would be in your game, maybe we could overanalyze them.

-PENCERKOFF (buried secret?)

[andygeers]

You talk about the "awesome" parts. What about the rest?

Getting back to morals in video games... has anyone noted an instance of helping someone in a video game that had any effect on you?  A very basic game mechanic as part of an RPG is to find items for random people who will reward you when you bring it to them (not that they said anything about a reward).  I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that being altruistic in video games has absolutely no bearing on my morality in the real world.

Is there any way to get beyond that? 

I've always wanted to make a game based on the old-testament. Old-Testament god is so angry, vengeful, and somewhat arbitrary, and I think it would be great to play a game where you had to deal with all of god's bizarre requests
...
My opinion: Jesus said some cool and reasonable stuff (as well as some run-of-the-mill biblical weirdness), and often the new testament makes way more sense as a guide for life than the old-testament

I'd like to tackle all three of those posts together: the general vibe I'm picking up is that people find the Old Testament plain WEIRD when they read it, and who can blame them? And largely, people cope with that by generalising it and saying, "well basically the Bible is about loving people" (which makes the Old T *even* weirder!) and then you end up with really bland teaching points and any "Bible-teaching game" really becomes a "altruism-teaching game" which I think is really hard to do well.

My personal experience is that the Bible is a massively nuanced collection of books written over a very long period of time, which taken together paint an incredibly rich and multifaceted portrait of the character of God and his dealings with humanity. Yes there's some immediately gripping stories full of sex and violence and bodily fluids, but even the apparently humdrum bits or the plain offensive bits have something to teach us if we take the time to figure out what the author is trying to show us and why it's there and how it fits into the bigger picture (and there IS an overarching bigger picture in there, believe me!)

So the aim of my game is to take one tiny, little-known passage (1 Samuel 8-12) and spend some time figuring out what this little fragment of the Bible says specifically (which will be a LOT more nuanced than 'be nice to people') and aiming to make it that little bit less opaque to people to have previously found the Old Testament utterly unintelligible.

As for Pencherkoff's question: how to apply those truths in a game in a way that has any lasting effect is exactly the issue that I'm racking my brain over at the moment. I'm taking inspiration from games like Portal and Fable 2 and Bioshock, where choices the player makes (e.g. with the Weighted Companion Cube) *can* have some lasting emotional impact. I still haven't figured it all out yet, but my basic teaching point is something about the effect it has on the way we relate to other people when we realise that God is dependable and not thwarted by seemingly-powerful enemies (which maybe is part of why I'm not afraid of situations like this forum where people disagree with me!)

[Oddball]

I mean who could forget Lot offering his virgin daughters to be gang raped by an angry mob just save his own skin.

He was protecting his guests goddamnit at least read the book you're making fun of

First off, I'm not making fun of the bible. Not sure where you get that impression from. I'm just illustrating my point that the bible is brutal when you get into the actual content. Secondly, I've read it and am well aware of why he does it. Though I find it a little strange that you think protecting guests is a reason to freely give up your daughters to unthinkable acts of cruelty, but that's your prerogative I suppose.

Or the Genesis example with Lot (I think the original poster was confused - Lot was the guy whose two virgin daughters drugged him and raped him whilst he was asleep so that they could have kids!)

Just to be clear. I'm refring to Genesis 19:7-8

7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

But the incest storyline you mention doesn't really paint god in any better light. I mean this is the family that was worthy of saving after all.

Sorry to go off topic. I just don't want to be portrayed as someone who is anti-bible. In fact I think the bible is a powerful volume of literature and I can appreciate that just as I can appreciate the film Resevoir Dogs.

[Bree]

I think someone asked about Christian themes in The Matrix. There are quite a few really obvious ones: For starters, Neo is literally "The One", a messianic figure capable of transcending this plane of existence (here called the Matrix) who is doomed to sacrifice himself for the benefit of mankind. In the first movie alone, he dies and is resurrected (a bit faster than Jesus- must be on a faster internet connection). His love interest is named Trinity, and her role is similar to that of Mary. The last human city in the real world is called Zion, another name for Jerusalem. There's probably a bunch more, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

I'd personally like to see someone try and make a game based off of the Talmud.