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[Juhkystar]

Also as this conversation has turned into believing the Old Testament, I'm definitely out. Derek, Alex, Pencerkoff, Oddball, and Paul made some really strong arguments and points for making cool bible games, but this is very very quickly turning into a bizarre conversation about how dinosaurs are not real, angels are real, and how the world is flat.. !_! I'm very glad to see that there were some very serious conversations about how you can take something interesting like old stories from a culture dating thousands of years and make it into something thought provoking. But now it is getting silly.

This has sparked some interesting debate, but I feel this should be moved to another thread as it's kinda  offtopic now. Andy was really just asking for help on making game, not a scrutiny of his motives. While I'm intrigued by some of the replies, I doubt myself or anyone else is going to change their opinion. So this should really go somewhere else in respect to his thread.

[Dacke]

Wow, poor Andy getting trolled to death here. I'm against the idea that religious people shouldn't be allowed to preach and spread their ideas. I'm a radical atheist, in the spirit of Douglas Adams. I almost feel that I have a duty to explain to people why I think I'm right and religion is wrong. It's extremely strange to think that religious people shouldn't be allowed to do the same thing. As long as it's done in a good way (based on rational argumentation), which Andy seems intent on doing, I see no problem with it.

But I am curious about one thing. From my experience, when reading the old testament, it is one of the best anti-christian propaganda texts out there. To me it feels incoherent, filled with immorality and quite random. I'm not looking to start an argument here, but I'm a bit curious about how your reasoning goes. If you intend to teach about the old testament (without cheating on the source material) how will it lead to a better acceptance of christianity? (Or is it me that should be playing your game to reach a better understanding of the Bible  )

[andygeers]

Wow, poor Andy getting trolled to death here.

I've actually been amazed at how great the quality of the discussion has been (in general) - usually it's pretty hard to sustain a thread like this to six pages and still have game development even vaguely on the agenda.

From my experience, when reading the old testament, it is one of the best anti-christian propaganda texts out there. To me it feels incoherent, filled with immorality and quite random.

You've hit the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned! This is exactly why I want to make this game not just for Christians - to help in some small way to communicate the Christian understanding of the (apparently somewhat impenetrable) Old Testament to people to whom it's otherwise a closed book, and so help them understand the Christian God a little better. It seems that for many people the Old T God is pretty embarrassing, if not downright repulsive, whereas my experience is that once you see what the stories are all about you begin to get a glimpse of quite how glorious he really is.

[Juhkystar]

Yeah, I have to agree with Andy. The OT has a lot of history that is told as it is, but it never says that it's okay. If you understand what the bible teaches (About sin and whatnot), you'll know that these things aren't actually applauded, but rather told as they were as a history, and also as a tool to learn from other's mistakes. But that's really only the tip of it all...

I think you better hurry up and make that game Andy. I think that's the best way you can show people what you mean. 

[Dacke]

You've hit the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned! This is exactly why I want to make this game not just for Christians - to help in some small way to communicate the Christian understanding of the (apparently somewhat impenetrable) Old Testament to people to whom it's otherwise a closed book, and so help them understand the Christian God a little better. It seems that for many people the Old T God is pretty embarrassing, if not downright repulsive, whereas my experience is that once you see what the stories are all about you begin to get a glimpse of quite how glorious he really is.

If you're able to present the OT in a way that doesn't make it feel.. well.. appalling.. I'd be really interested. If you also do it in a convincing way, that is true to the source material, I think it could be awesome. I'm constantly trying to better understand why religious people believe what they believe. I'm able to understand why people generally feel that the Jesus of the Bible is a generally decent guy - but the OT is completely beyond my graps.

Not that it in any way will make me believe in it, but I'm desperate to understand why you don't just reject it. Best of luck to you!

Yeah, I have to agree with Andy. The OT has a lot of history that is told as it is, but it never says that it's okay. If you understand what the bible teaches (About sin and whatnot), you'll know that these things aren't actually applauded, but rather told as they were as a history, and also as a tool to learn from other's mistakes. But that's really only the tip of it all...

I can't say I agree with you here. Seeing how often Yahweh steps in, often doing the most horrible things. Describing the atrocities of men without encouraging it is possible (like any proper History book) but when downright evil actions are taken by your god, how are they not to be taken as an encouragement to mimic that behaviour?

Well, I guess I’ll have to play the game

[Juhkystar]

I can't say I agree with you here. Seeing how often Yahweh steps in, often doing the most horrible things. Describing the atrocities of men without encouraging it is possible (like any proper History book) but when downright evil actions are taken by your god, how are they not to be taken as an encouragement to mimic that behaviour?

That;s where understanding the other ideas and beliefs comes into play. I don't really want to get into a huge theological discussion here, but there are other factors that come into play...(Namely traits that we believe God has that some believe conflict with each other. You can get really into this stuff, and I don't feel like going that offtopic in Andy's thread. But maybe on some other one sometime...)

[Dacke]

That;s where understanding the other ideas and beliefs comes into play. I don't really want to get into a huge theological discussion here, but there are other factors that come into play...(Namely traits that we believe God has that some believe conflict with each other. You can get really into this stuff, and I don't feel like going that offtopic in Andy's thread. But maybe on some other one sometime...)

And suddenly I'm the one being trolly. Sorry about that. I honestly want to understand the beliefs of others (yours inculuded). I guess I'm just not clever enough.

[Super Joe]

when at home do as the homos do

[Pencerkoff]

Hello this is Pencerkoff

I can't say I agree with you here. Seeing how often Yahweh steps in, often doing the most horrible things. Describing the atrocities of men without encouraging it is possible (like any proper History book) but when downright evil actions are taken by your god, how are they not to be taken as an encouragement to mimic that behaviour?

Without getting too far into it, yes God got angry and would go so far as to wipe out whole cities or even the entire population save 8 people.  It never seemed to matter what God did to impress his morality upon people, they would either ignore it or forget.  The entire OT can be paraphrased into "God would draw people to him and people would fall away".  A good comparison is to think of human civilization as a growing child, and that God has to occasionally punish this child when it goes astray.

Anyone remember the game Black and White?  It let you play god and try to balance the line between loving your people and letting them grow lazy or putting the fear of God in them and making them work harder.  I don't remember being overly compelled by how they did it, but I wonder if you couldn't put together a Sim game where you played god over a group of people... and occasionally they would start worshiping other gods or something and you'd have to do things to set them straight.  Course games like that tend to enrage certain Christian communities.

-PENCERKOFF

[Angelo]

Hello this is Pencerkoff

I can't say I agree with you here. Seeing how often Yahweh steps in, often doing the most horrible things. Describing the atrocities of men without encouraging it is possible (like any proper History book) but when downright evil actions are taken by your god, how are they not to be taken as an encouragement to mimic that behaviour?

Without getting too far into it, yes God got angry and would go so far as to wipe out whole cities or even the entire population save 8 people.  It never seemed to matter what God did to impress his morality upon people, they would either ignore it or forget.  The entire OT can be paraphrased into "God would draw people to him and people would fall away".  A good comparison is to think of human civilization as a growing child, and that God has to occasionally punish this child when it goes astray.

Anyone remember the game Black and White?  It let you play god and try to balance the line between loving your people and letting them grow lazy or putting the fear of God in them and making them work harder.  I don't remember being overly compelled by how they did it, but I wonder if you couldn't put together a Sim game where you played god over a group of people... and occasionally they would start worshiping other gods or something and you'd have to do things to set them straight.  Course games like that tend to enrage certain Christian communities.

-PENCERKOFF

Black and White would be a better game if it was as involving as you describe. The only difference between being good or bad to your little people was whether you literally took them by the hand like a baby and giving them free food and resources in general, or you killed them and destroyed their homes.

[Pencerkoff]

Hello this is Pencerkoff

Black and White would be a better game if it was as involving as you describe. The only difference between being good or bad to your little people was whether you literally took them by the hand like a baby and giving them free food and resources in general, or you killed them and destroyed their homes.

Yeah.  My people would hate me and I couldn't figure it out until I noticed my Pet just ate everybody it saw.  Beating up your pet to train it was probably the most fun you could have in that game.

I remember Stronghold had a great happiness system, you could make people happy with churches or a brewery and tavern or make them work harder by putting up gallows and drowning pits everywhere.  I'll have to play that one again.

-PENCERKOFF

[Juhkystar]

And suddenly I'm the one being trolly. Sorry about that. I honestly want to understand the beliefs of others (yours inculuded). I guess I'm just not clever enough.

Nah, I just have trolled enough in my "noob" days that I get kinda touchy about messing diverging in other people's thread. I think it's great that you wish to be exposed to many views and not just one. (I myself have been looking at Buddhism lately, and a while ago I did a lot of research on the implications of atheism.) But, I think we should start another thread to discuss it in. 

Anyone remember the game Black and White?  It let you play god and try to balance the line between loving your people and letting them grow lazy or putting the fear of God in them and making them work harder.  I don't remember being overly compelled by how they did it, but I wonder if you couldn't put together a Sim game where you played god over a group of people... and occasionally they would start worshiping other gods or something and you'd have to do things to set them straight.  Course games like that tend to enrage certain Christian communities.

-PENCERKOFF

I would be ecstatic if someone made a game the way you mention. Black and White was too "unrealistic" if I might say so. I like your ideas. Also, giving them "quests" and reacting to their response would be cool too. (Now go on an epic quest to the land waaaaayyyyy over there!)

As for some Christian communities being enraged, I personally believe that "Christianity" has become very narrow minded. What happened to us being the forerunners of the arts like we were during the Renaissance? Too many Christians are afraid that they are violating their beliefs somehow by playing games, but where does it say "Thou shalt not jump on yonder goomba!!!"? It's true that some themes in games aren't exactly in line with biblical beliefs (*coughGTAcough*), but some people get riled up about, say, Spelunky because they disagree with shooting the enemies. (Only thing I could think of ATM...) That's why I personally like to call myself a "follower of Christ". Keeps people from stereotyping me. (Sad but true.  )

Man, I so want to make a new B&W now...

[Dacke]

It's true that some themes in games aren't exactly in line with biblical beliefs (*coughGTAcough*), but some people get riled up about, say, Spelunky because they disagree with shooting the enemies.

If GTA is in line with anyones beliefs, those persons should be locked up safe and sound in a maximum security prisson. It has nothing to do with christianity or any other religion. As a pacifist most things that go on in games are extremely strongly against my beliefs - or at least they would be if they were for real. I can't see any real difference between GTA and Spelunky in that regard. Luckily enough they aren't for real =)

Man, I so want to make a new B&W now...

Me too! I wonder how realistic it is. Perhaps it can be done? The possibility makes me all excited inside.

[Pencerkoff]

Hello this is Pencerkoff

Man, I so want to make a new B&W now...

Me too! I wonder how realistic it is. Perhaps it can be done? The possibility makes me all excited inside.

Apparently they made B&W 2... anybody play it?

I also want to discuss what lines (if any) you shouldn't cross when making a religious-based video game.  Someone mentioned The passion of the Christ being a good (well, popular) movie and that a subsequent game wouldn't be terribly exciting.  I'm pretty sure you'd offend the majority of Christians if you made a "Crucify Jesus" game where you beat and nailed Jesus to a cross.  Strangely enough, though, the majority of Christians would also tell you that you should have the perspective that you, personally, nailed Jesus to the cross as much as the Jews/Romans did in ~35 AD.

King David once saw a woman bathing on her roof and ended up sleeping with her and killing her husband.  You could make a game about it but I don't see how that would be any different than GTA.

-PENCERKOFF

[Super Joe]

who cares what other people think

[Dacke]

who cares what other people think

other people do

[astrospoon]

Oh man. This thread got massive. I have some reading to catch up on before I can post something meaningful again. Yikes.

[Dacke]

Apparently they made B&W 2... anybody play it?

It's actually even worse than B&W1. It doesn't even pretend to be profound in any way.

[mrfredman]

Apparently they made B&W 2... anybody play it?

It's actually even worse than B&W1. It doesn't even pretend to be profound in any way.

To contribute to this thread derail:

I actually enjoyed B&W2 far more than B&W1, neither game was particularly profound in any way except for the way you could mold your creature, and interacting with your creature was admittedly far more interesting in the first game. B&W2 was a much more fun game because of the open-ended RTS gameplay it employed, interacting with the world and completing objectives was incredibly frustrating and unpleasant in the first game, and while they managed to fix many of those issues in the second game, it still felt like a reasonably empty RTS with RPG elements rather than the morally-enfused god-game it was professed to be.

[Pencerkoff]

Hello this is Pencerkoff

who cares what other people think

The irony of posting that statement is oddly unsettling.

To contribute to this thread derail:

I don't see these discussions as a thread derail, this is about bible-games and their implications.  Any God-game is at least loosely related.

-PENCERKOFF