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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperDesignWhat makes a game Boring to you ?
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airman4
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« on: December 10, 2018, 11:48:19 AM »

Simple question but could be useful to a number of devs here ?
I wonder so , what makes a game boring, you find boring to you ?
The visuals ? Lack of creativity ?

The gameplay ? The same levels over and over ?Not enough weapons ?

The lack of fun overall ? Why ? what is fun to you ?


Something else ?
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Pedia
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« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2018, 05:04:19 PM »

I think it's the certainty. If you can surely win the game with just a few limited ways it's surely boring.

You won't be bored with some real-world sports, like bowling, which have very simple rules, because they are in some degree unpredictable. The victory is not guaranteed.
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airman4
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« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2018, 05:08:10 PM »

I think it's the certainty. If you can surely win the game with just a few limited ways it's surely boring.

You won't be bored with some real-world sports, like bowling, which have very simple rules, because they are in some degree unpredictable. The victory is not guaranteed.

OHHHH
Never saw that coming, good note as well
Being unpredictable thats good !

So thats mean having a good mix between hasard, randomize and hardcore ?
I think too much random could be a problem
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Pedia
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« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2018, 05:20:01 PM »

OHHHH
Never saw that coming, good note as well
Being unpredictable thats good !

So thats mean having a good mix between hasard, randomize and hardcore ?
I think too much random could be a problem

Not "too much random". Totally unpredictable and totally predictable are both boring.
e.g., if you are farming a boss or opening a chest in an RPG, you don't want the results are always the same.

In some games, you may practice your skills to make it more certain, but you should not reach a level that it's 100% certain.
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airman4
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« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2018, 06:01:55 PM »

I see, i think maybe when we reach 100 % in rpg for example, is when we start to change games, for a fresh new one
Good input !
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Ordnas
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« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2018, 01:54:15 AM »

A formula to not make a game boring is like searching for the Holy Grail. Only the sum of all major parts of a game, which we can reduce then as game design, art, sound design and story can increase the probability of making your game better and not boring. Personally for me, I start to feel bored when I see a pattern from the developer to increase the longevity of a game in a "sly" way, such as a repetition of assets, for example using back tracking or playing in the same area for too long.
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« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2018, 12:50:16 AM »

You will find the accurate answer in A Theory of Fun by Raph Koster. But it basically boils down to two things: Learning curve and mastering.

As long as the game offers to you something to learn and master, it will be appealing. It is not necessarily mechanics and it also applies to other media: A thriller is interesting as movie as long as the spectator is not able to completely guess what is going on but at the same time able to (think he can) assemble the pieces of the puzzle in a plausible way.

So you find fun in the following games by different means:
- Night in the Woods: You keep revealing the story of the town and the characters as you play.
- Super Mario Bros: Improving the player skills and optimizing the run.
- Kerbal Space Program: Figuring out the most performing ways to achieve missions, and then moving to the next bigger challenge.
- Monkey Island: Solving the riddles (in unexpected ways) plus a funny story to follow.

Your game will be guaranteed boring if lacks of both things: an appealing story to unfold and some challenge (or not properly crafted challenge curve through the game).

The excess of challenge on the other hand is not necessarily bad. It could be frustrating for many players but is definitely appealing for an audience group.
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Ordnas
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« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2018, 01:51:02 AM »

Otherwise I would like to reverse the question to the OP: why would you worry about boring the player? Why not instead making a game that express your idea? Are there the risk to make the usual "game clone" just because you want to make a game "fun"? I would like to avoid the idea that a game design should bend to the general trend and "it is suitable to marketing". Otherwise we would not have games like "Stanley Parable" and "Firewatch". And about books, I think that a designer would never say its secret technics, and a general formula in a book is too general and not very helpful if you are not making your first game.
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« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2018, 02:08:44 AM »

I think Aghko gave a great answer.

Games with cliche, un-inventive and non-relatable stories/characters and are usually boring to me. There's a "been there, done that" boilerplate feeling to them.
Mechanics wise it's hard for me to say. Most fun mechanics are fun on their own in a vacuum, as toys, but there's no much incentive to play with them for a longer period of time if there's no objectives/story wrapped around them.
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NovaSilisko
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« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2018, 07:28:24 AM »

Otherwise I would like to reverse the question to the OP: why would you worry about boring the player? Why not instead making a game that express your idea? Are there the risk to make the usual "game clone" just because you want to make a game "fun"? I would like to avoid the idea that a game design should bend to the general trend and "it is suitable to marketing". Otherwise we would not have games like "Stanley Parable" and "Firewatch". And about books, I think that a designer would never say its secret technics, and a general formula in a book is too general and not very helpful if you are not making your first game.

I think I side with this too, or try to. I still get the anxiety about what I make being too niche and unpopular, but, with help, am slowly coming around to the "if you build it, they will come" mentality, and that I should just follow the dreams I have for the games I make.
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airman4
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« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2018, 04:29:51 PM »

You will find the accurate answer in A Theory of Fun by Raph Koster. But it basically boils down to two things: Learning curve and mastering.

As long as the game offers to you something to learn and master, it will be appealing. It is not necessarily mechanics and it also applies to other media: A thriller is interesting as movie as long as the spectator is not able to completely guess what is going on but at the same time able to (think he can) assemble the pieces of the puzzle in a plausible way.

So you find fun in the following games by different means:
- Night in the Woods: You keep revealing the story of the town and the characters as you play.
- Super Mario Bros: Improving the player skills and optimizing the run.
- Kerbal Space Program: Figuring out the most performing ways to achieve missions, and then moving to the next bigger challenge.
- Monkey Island: Solving the riddles (in unexpected ways) plus a funny story to follow.

Your game will be guaranteed boring if lacks of both things: an appealing story to unfold and some challenge (or not properly crafted challenge curve through the game).

The excess of challenge on the other hand is not necessarily bad. It could be frustrating for many players but is definitely appealing for an audience group.

Thanks ,that was awesome sum up and instructive


@Ordnas

The thread is for improvement and making better games at least from that point of vue
To avoid annoying the gamer with bad stuff here and here
In that case Aghko and Pedia gave great help on that (you too but in another thread ^^ )
There is no need to talk about vision and expressing an idea wich i think would be off topic here
It's mostly the core gameplay we discuss and if i remember you complained about Bastion for the lack of veriety and fun in the level design if i'm not mistaken

An alternative question or better question asked would be: what's fun, whats the best games with fun have you played ?
A good story and good dialogue are fun or is the gameplay only wich can bring it ?

But if we see Pedia response, i thin Fun in video game is close to what Pedia said and that's explain why i found the answer great.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 04:52:28 PM by airman4 » Logged

barta
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« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2018, 02:24:37 AM »

Quote
a good story or good dialogue are fun or Is the gameplay only wich can bring it?

Story can work on its own to keep somebody tied to the screen, otherwise there wouldn't exist visual novels, nor movies i guess. I think the only way to define 'fun' in the context of videogames, in a meaningful way, is 'the thing that keeps someone there pressing buttons'. Unlike in  other contexts, like movies and TV series, where 'fun' would only refear to the effectiveness of comedy. But clearly fun is used to describe games indipendently if they make you smile or not. You can also feel challenged, or frustrated, or curious, or a bunch of other things, while playing a videogame you enjoy.
So i would say definitely, story alone would make a game 'fun'. But i guess if you don't put some gameplay in there, there's a subtle, vague line after which your game stops being a game, to become a visual novel.

As what makes gameplay fun, i guess it depends on the genre, really, and the person you are and the mood you're in. People playing minecraft enjoy expressing their creativity, i suppose. People playing counter strike, or whatever, or some paradox game, they like a challenge. While an adventure game lets you explore, as a kid in a new big house, while kerbal space program offers space and awe for the nerdiest among us. So it varies wildly. The only thing in common to all videogames, is the tools used to make them, and to play them.
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beetleking22
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« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2019, 06:11:39 AM »

When the game start to repeat itself with same design and lack of variety. I had this problem in Hyper light drifter. Collect 5 key to finish area. I did this same progression in every Hyper light drifter area without much of changes/variety in gameplay. Some of  enemies where also reused which did not help at all.
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airman4
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« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2019, 09:51:30 AM »

When the game start to repeat itself with same design and lack of variety. I had this problem in Hyper light drifter. Collect 5 key to finish area. I did this same progression in every Hyper light drifter area without much of changes/variety in gameplay. Some of  enemies where also reused which did not help at all.
Thats very interesting what you say cause One of the game i'm creating

 
is about collecting Orbs to open a door to the next stage and so on.
So i'll have to be careful with that and change the formula, like really change it to avoid those possible critiques.
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JobLeonard
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« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2019, 02:11:25 PM »

So I clicked on the links in your sig hoping that game is in one of them, but I don't see it. Also, the personal website one is a dead link
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airman4
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« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2019, 02:32:39 PM »

So I clicked on the links in your sig hoping that game is in one of them, but I don't see it. Also, the personal website one is a dead link
Ohh my boy
Yeah i should update those link (okay i'll do it after eat )
No, not devlog yet for that game but i should actually start one.
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Lato
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« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2019, 01:34:11 PM »

I wonder so , what makes a game boring, you find boring to you ?
I think the biggest issue is the repetitive core loop, with the same pace over and over. I would also say, lack of really cool rewards and last but not least, the lack of characters / levels / difficulty progression.
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airman4
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« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2019, 01:41:30 PM »

Thanks
Its interesting to note that gamers love some change in the entire game, changes that breaks a bit the repetitive nature of the game
For cool rewards you mean, original one or really useful one ?
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kason.xiv
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« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2019, 01:02:48 PM »

In Mihály Csíkszentmihályi's psychological model of flow (what people usually refer to as being in "the zone") he includes conditions for inducing boredom. Whereas the state of flow requires a high level of skill when facing a highly challenging task, he argues that boredom is brought on when a moderately skilled person engages in an extremely easy task.



There are some arguments against this model, I believe - some people think that low skill paired with an easy task can also result in flow.

So I guess if all you want to do is avoid boredom, then you can simply attempt to direct your game into any of the other regions of the diagram above. It's likely more better though, from the perspective of gameplay, to aim at providing an easily accessible state of flow for your users. Mihaly's model says these must all be held for someone to experience flow:

1. Knowledge of what to do
2. Knowledge of how to do it
3. Knowledge of how well you are doing
4. Knowledge of where to go (if navigation is involved)
5. A high perception of task difficulty
6. A high perception of skills
7. Freedom from distractions.

Of course, all players will learn and progress at a different rate, so I'd argue that there is no way to avoid boredom 100% of the time for all users.

read more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)
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airman4
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« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2019, 01:27:05 PM »

Thanks ! that's interesting, i didnt knew this flowchart
Of course i wont avoid 100 % that's impossible and i know it.
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