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[sherjilozair]

A common advice to new game developers is to implement only the core mechanic of the game, and make sure that it's fun before implementing anything else. While I have no game design experience, this sounds like good advice. However, I'm not sure how to use such an advice if I wanted to make a metroidvania. What I like most about metroidvanias are the world exploration, world interconnectedness, and different art styles of each world, as exemplified in hollow knight and environmental station alpha. But it seems that one can't really do a quick prototype of these ideas, without creating the full map and all the areas.

I know I could implement the powerups and make sure that they are fun, but I think powerups are just a tool to wall off areas, and the real magic in metroidvanias is exploration.

What do folks think about how best to prototype metroidvanias?

[Thaumaturge]

Hmm... I suppose that I have two answers to that, myself:

First, I'm not convinced that the advice that you mentioned is universally applicable. While it's probably not a bad idea for many types of game, I don't think that it's quite as absolute it might seem.

Second, while the core appeal of a given game may be something that doesn't lend itself to quick prototyping, the moment-to-moment interactions may. For example, in a metroidvania the most interesting part may be exploring strange new areas--but that might be undermined if the movement mechanics don't feel good, or the character's abilities are awkward to use. And those things, I think, can likely be prototyped.

[valrus]

Prototyping is a tool to answer questions about your design; if you don't have questions then just jump in.  In a well-established genre, a lot of the design questions have already been answered for you.

I second Thaumaturge about the important of prototyping the movement and abilities, though.  You don't want to just use the same abilities as other metroidvanias.  (Or maybe you do.  But *I* don't want you to.  Seeing a too-high-ledge or a tall shaft and knowing in advance I'm going to find and use a double jump or a wall jump is no fun anymore; I want you metroidvania-designers to start surprising me again.)

[Ordnas]

I also have some doubts about the common advice to "make sure it is fun before implementing anything else", fun is not the key for a great game (example: I had more fun with God of War, but Red Dead Redemption 2 is  my game of the year for what it achieved, even if it bored me sometimes).

In a metroidvania I would just avoid too much backtracking, and the new power up should not be used just to open new areas (I disliked The Messenger for these 2 points).

[J-Snake]

A common advice to new game developers is to implement only the core mechanic of the game, and make sure that it's fun before implementing anything else. While I have no game design experience, this sounds like good advice. However, I'm not sure how to use such an advice if I wanted to make a metroidvania. What I like most about metroidvanias are the world exploration, world interconnectedness, and different art styles of each world, as exemplified in hollow knight and environmental station alpha. But it seems that one can't really do a quick prototype of these ideas, without creating the full map and all the areas.

While you like the exploration, art, atmosphere etc. the most in Hollow Knight and other games, it probably wouldn't be very engaging without challenging action gameplay. I would argue that it is extremely helpful to prototype a metroidvania according to the given advice. It is because gameplay and its theme/presentation (which entails everything else, visuals, sound, story. etc.) are always two sides of the same coin. So by focusing on the gameplay side first the mechanical nature of the game is directly exposed. For example, you could compose a substantial subset of Hollow Knight out of simple abstract shapes and just test the flow of the gameplay. If the core gameplay loop flows well and feels engaging, then it will feel even more satisfying once the presentation layer is suitably added. Otherwise, if the gameplay isn't engaging to begin with, the presentation layer might partially compensate for that, but then you know that the gameplay side (sadly) is still not a strong point of the game.

and the new power up should not be used just to open new areas.

Certainly a good point. A power up shouldn't be restricted to a single purpose only, but open up progression options in a rather organic way. Super Metroid is an example for some single purpose only power ups; see a green door/ missile block? Use super missile. See a yellow door/power bomb block? Use power bomb (I know you can use it to destroy the tube in Maridia, but it is just a neat special case, not a mechanical opportunity derived from the common rule set). You can still use these power ups to destroy enemies, of course, but not in a way which alters the possibilities in progression. The closest item which opens up progression opportunities in a subtle and more organic way is the ice beam. In its defense, Super Metroid were still early days, game design experience was pretty limited, hardware too. However, Super Metroid was still an important achievement. But today the opportunities are there to do it the "right way".

[Lares Yamoir]

You can apply prototyping also to "the world" of your game.
1) Level Design often consists of different stages: Box Design Stage, Asset Stage, Lighting Stage, Polish just to name a few. Only work through the stages you need for the prototype.
2) Artstyle is also something that can be iterated on: Start with Mood boards, art assets from other games, rough sketches, etc. Then improve/replace those graphics.
3) In terms of world building start with the most significant characters and events. Figure out how to convey their story. Add new twists, characters, events if you think those would add something to the overall experience. Refine dialog and environmental storytelling.

But of course, you'll also need to work on gameplay eventually. So my advice would be to work on all these things more or less in parallel, so that you'll leave the prototyping stage of every aspect of your game at around the same time.

[beetleking22]

You can design one area per time and connect them later together with some changes here and there. You could use your tools for platforming challenges, puzzles or even in battles instead of being just keys for door.

[beetleking22]

A common advice to new game developers is to implement only the core mechanic of the game, and make sure that it's fun before implementing anything else. While I have no game design experience, this sounds like good advice. However, I'm not sure how to use such an advice if I wanted to make a metroidvania. What I like most about metroidvanias are the world exploration, world interconnectedness, and different art styles of each world, as exemplified in hollow knight and environmental station alpha. But it seems that one can't really do a quick prototype of these ideas, without creating the full map and all the areas.

While you like the exploration, art, atmosphere etc. the most in Hollow Knight and other games, it probably wouldn't be very engaging without challenging action gameplay. I would argue that it is extremely helpful to prototype a metroidvania according to the given advice. It is because gameplay and its theme/presentation (which entails everything else, visuals, sound, story. etc.) are always two sides of the same coin. So by focusing on the gameplay side first the mechanical nature of the game is directly exposed. For example, you could compose a substantial subset of Hollow Knight out of simple abstract shapes and just test the flow of the gameplay. If the core gameplay loop flows well and feels engaging, then it will feel even more satisfying once the presentation layer is suitably added. Otherwise, if the gameplay isn't engaging to begin with, the presentation layer might partially compensate for that, but then you know that the gameplay side (sadly) is still not a strong point of the game.

and the new power up should not be used just to open new areas.

Certainly a good point. A power up shouldn't be restricted to a single purpose only, but open up progression options in a rather organic way. Super Metroid is an example for some single purpose only power ups; see a green door/ missile block? Use super missile. See a yellow door/power bomb block? Use power bomb (I know you can use it to destroy the tube in Maridia, but it is just a neat special case, not a mechanical opportunity derived from the common rule set). You can still use these power ups to destroy enemies, of course, but not in a way which alters the possibilities in progression. The closest item which opens up progression opportunities in a subtle and more organic way is the ice beam. In its defense, Super Metroid were still early days, game design experience was pretty limited, hardware too. However, Super Metroid was still an important achievement. But today the opportunities are there to do it the "right way".

At least Super missiles and missiles were pretty useful in boss battles and Power bomb was also useful for finding secrets because it blow up every breaking tile but I get you point.

[airman4]

Prototyping is a tool to answer questions about your design; if you don't have questions then just jump in.  In a well-established genre, a lot of the design questions have already been answered for you.

I second Thaumaturge about the important of prototyping the movement and abilities, though.  You don't want to just use the same abilities as other metroidvanias.  (Or maybe you do.  But *I* don't want you to.  Seeing a too-high-ledge or a tall shaft and knowing in advance I'm going to find and use a double jump or a wall jump is no fun anymore; I want you metroidvania-designers to start surprising me again.)

Any metroidvanias who surprised you recently ?
I see people praising dead cells or chasm
I might buy chasm to see a bit how it goes (i already played Symphony of the Night a lot of times xd )

[beetleking22]

Prototyping is a tool to answer questions about your design; if you don't have questions then just jump in.  In a well-established genre, a lot of the design questions have already been answered for you.

I second Thaumaturge about the important of prototyping the movement and abilities, though.  You don't want to just use the same abilities as other metroidvanias.  (Or maybe you do.  But *I* don't want you to.  Seeing a too-high-ledge or a tall shaft and knowing in advance I'm going to find and use a double jump or a wall jump is no fun anymore; I want you metroidvania-designers to start surprising me again.)

Any metroidvanias who surprised you recently ?
I see people praising dead cells or chasm
I might buy chasm to see a bit how it goes (i already played Symphony of the Night a lot of times xd )

This is my personal recommending. If you want learn good metroidvania level design.. play Super metroid. If you want learn good metroidvania combat system play hollow knight.

[airman4]

Yeah i know super metroid
Only problem Hollow knight is not on vita but i need to buy a switch (chasm is on vita at least )

Thanks for the input.

[Raptor85]

At least Super missiles and missiles were pretty useful in boss battles and Power bomb was also useful for finding secrets because it blow up every breaking tile but I get you point.

Power bombs also let you crystal flash allowing you to expend ammo for full health refills, so they were useful that if you learned the tricks you could skip huge numbers of items and run straight for the bosses.

With charge and wave you could perform "x-factor" which just obliterates certain bosses, again letting you skip a lot of items, you can also perform screw attack with charge but with a cost to your health.

speed booster gives you shinespark which is literally the best move in any game ever.

Infinite bomb jumping, unlike in metroid, was actually Intentional in super metroid and lets you get to a lot of places sooner than you generally would, reducing backtracking.

Super metroid had a ridiculous number of hidden secondary uses for every item