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December 15, 2019, 06:20:24 PM

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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperDesignPure metroidvania level design in 2D Top down game
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beetleking22
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« on: January 08, 2019, 05:36:21 PM »

People often say that Top down zelda games are like  Metroidvanias but they actually never feel like one because the dungeons are itself one time experiences and dungeon progression is sometimes botched with sidequest. I want challenge myself. I actually want create dungeons that feels like they are part of the area (Metroidvania) but still have that (Zelda) dungeon level design and goals.. So if you finish the so called  Dungeon experience content.. The area will became backtrack room for secrets and new paths that leads you to completely new area.. You will unlock these with new items you gain from other areas. One Dungeon area could be small city or big cave, forest etc. I would also create shit tons of shortcut for each area to reduce player backtrack distance. Teleport system would reduce a lot of backtracking but im just afraid of it because it  could kill the metroidvania mood. To progress in  the map I would lead the player invisibly to the right path similar to Super metroid but when you are done 20-50% percent of the game.. The map start to open more.. What you think about this? Could  it work? This just actually theory right now.





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airman4
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« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2019, 04:29:17 AM »

Nice idea
I think a game on saturn managed to do it ? (never actually played, i should try saturn emulators )
That game is the legendary Story of thor 2



Not sure if the game is really good for your idea.

They should really really really remake that game.
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beetleking22
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« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2019, 07:59:32 AM »

Nice idea
I think a game on saturn managed to do it ? (never actually played, i should try saturn emulators )
That game is the legendary Story of thor 2



Not sure if the game is really good for your idea.

They should really really really remake that game.

Its bit similar but not quite like it. For example you dont open that dungeon path with new items and there are no secret rooms. The progression is also linear. You next destiny after finishing that dungeon is to talk to elder guy and then the path opens from the dungeon. I dont know how the rest of dungeon works so I need make good research but nevertheless this is good finding.
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Katuko
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« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2019, 09:22:56 AM »

Even the very first Legend of Zelda had warp options through the Flute item and the hidden passageways. You may go wherever you want on the map from the very beginning, with the exception of certain dungeon entrances. Using the Flute to travel simply cuts down on travel time. The monsters along the way serve as beef gates to stop you, but a skilled player may simply walk past them or beat them down with the first sword you get. Walking from the starting point to the very end of Death Mountain takes maybe two minutes.

Castlevania: Symphony of The Night gives us the mirror rooms that allow you to travel freely between them once they have been discovered. This reduces the time spent pointlessly backtracking as well. I don't think it destroyed the feel of that game. The map is simply so big that it would unreasonable to expect perfect shortcuts and pathways between every area - at least the ones at the extreme ends of the castle. Meanwhile room layout and enemy placement makes each room require a bit of thought to get past the first time around. For example, a ranged attacker on a ledge with a melee monster in your face. When you pass by later you may ignore both by flying over their heads, but flying through the entire castle from its Entrance Hall to the top of the Clock Tower still takes several minutes.

The main thing to keep in mind for a Metroidvania, I feel, is that the overworld map should be designed so that it is one huge "mega-dungeon". Each location should be somewhat challenging on its own, with monsters and puzzles making use of the player's available skills. Every new area is a "mini-dungeon" of sorts, where you need to figure out how to get from A to B, how to locate and kill a boss, and usually obtain a new item.

Once this is explored that specific area is sort of "spent" unless there are more branching pathways to search. Even if there is, however, backtracking from one extreme end of the map to the other can get tedious after a few times. The player may want to search around to see if their fancy new tool can work in a room they had previously searched, but once they have done this they need to get back on track. It's easier to do this if they can make use of shortcuts through the "hub area", but for disconnected areas it may be best to allow fast travel. It doesn't have to be a teleport per se - it could be flavored to be a boat going from dock to dock along a river you could already travel past on foot, hitching a ride on someone's horse cart, buying a one-way ticket for a spaceship lift, and so on.

I don't think straight up teleportation is necessary if the player's new weapons and movement abilities allow them to cross the map in just a minute or two. If they could reasonably expect five to ten minutes of travel just to check out one room, however, that could quickly ruin the joy of exploration. Exploration, after all, requires looking for something you have not seen before. If the player passes through the same set of rooms over and over as a natural cause of traveling to others, consider making the corridors possible to skip somehow. The more shortcuts you have, the less need for teleportation.
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beetleking22
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« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2019, 12:39:31 PM »

Even the very first Legend of Zelda had warp options through the Flute item and the hidden passageways. You may go wherever you want on the map from the very beginning, with the exception of certain dungeon entrances. Using the Flute to travel simply cuts down on travel time. The monsters along the way serve as beef gates to stop you, but a skilled player may simply walk past them or beat them down with the first sword you get. Walking from the starting point to the very end of Death Mountain takes maybe two minutes.


Once this is explored that specific area is sort of "spent" unless there are more branching pathways to search. Even if there is, however, backtracking from one extreme end of the map to the other can get tedious after a few times. The player may want to search around to see if their fancy new tool can work in a room they had previously searched, but once they have done this they need to get back on track.


Very good point.


That is actually reason why I wanted to make first half of the game linear and much smaller scale world. So player would not get frustrated as hell when they backtrack for trying their new toys. I would also give every game mechanics abilities when you have done first 50% half of the game.  With those abilities you can explore rest of the game in any order you want.. It will reduce backtracking and it will also leads you in right place. I think this design would work perfectly. No need renting items like in Link between worlds..No need worry about ability not work in new areas...If I  put teleport system.. I would give it later in the game as reward.. I dont want ruin my shortcuts and decrease sense of adventure.. but I need come up with good rewards if player dont gain any new mechanics in late game..
« Last Edit: January 12, 2019, 12:59:53 PM by beetleking22 » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2019, 11:16:34 AM »

"If I  put teleport system.. I would give it later in the game as reward.. I dont want ruin my shortcuts and decrease sense of adventure"


yes this is the way to go, Darks Souls also does teleporting with the bonfires.

the metroid inspired, Axiom Verge does this with a linear passage way located in the center of the map which connects all the previous zones (except for the final 2 endgame zones) https://axiom-verge.fandom.com/wiki/Indi

both of these games enable faster travel options later in the game because their world is so exhaustively big.
There are many options to choose from, you have to be willing to redesign old ideas to what fits your game. Wizard
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