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oahda
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« Reply #640 on: January 19, 2022, 01:05:33 PM »

Thank you two!!

I see that you have it well thought. Gentleman

It's coming along! Grin

When you make a correct connection in the “stored details” subscreen, you get some sort of confirmation, meaning it’s impossible to bring incorrect info to the coordinator -- right?

I imagine players might find something they think is a discrepancy but isn’t really. Will they somehow be able to present that false discrepancy to characters, or will there be a more obvious “Discrepancy Get!” moment prior to presenting it?

Confirmation, yes. Ended up doing some serious rubberducking (thanks!!) responding to this, so I'll basically make an addition to the update here to clarify some mechanics I didn't go over very well there. Cheesy

  • You're no longer taking photos at all and I'll probably remove the camera around the character model's neck to make this absolutely clear. You're just "cataloguing details" (in your head) at a specific point in a witness account, represented by a picture to help the player organise it, but really consisting of the text metadata you've seen before: who/what is there, doing what, how, involving whom else, at what point in time etc. Let's call them nodes instead of "photos" from here on out!

  • There will probably be a few separate kinds of connections you can make. Discrepancy will be one of them, relationship (who is this person to that person) another, maybe more. Meaningful combinations will spawn new nodes connected to the parent nodes by lines. In turn there might even be connections between such child nodes and other nodes at any level! So we might be seeing JL's description of my spreadsheet in the game itself as well! Cheesy



  • The nodes are this game's version of dialogue options. Choosing one to "present" to a character in the base is literally just asking them about the information you heard or deduced. So you're not "showing them a photo" as it was previously. Will try to make this clearer from now on, and in the game! Smiley I also envision group conversations where other characters you've rescued might chime in if they know something, since you're all in the same room, and this will progress the present timeline story as well and let you get better acquainted with the characters.

Given this, I hope I can answer the question. Blink

So you can confront any character with any node I think, only getting meaningful answers, and new nodes, if they actually know.

As for combining any nodes, I'm not sure. It could be simple differentiation between metadata (this node from this account claims they said so at such time, but that node from that one disagrees) in which case it should be clear just by looking at them, or perhaps you have to pick out the specific metadata entries you want to compare.

Another one could be a character mentioning a fact about the parent of a named character, but you don't know who the parent is, nor does anyone in the base, but later that named character names them in another account, and now you can connect the name to the parent's node, unless that sort of direct information should automatically give you the node (or fill in the information in your existing node for the previously unnamed character).

But what I think all of this means is that no, you can't point out discrepancies that aren't there because you can't spawn any nodes suggesting them, but you do have to look through the nodes you have by yourself (and there will be quite a few eventually!) and find what looks like a mismatch before you can draw a line between the relevant metadata entries or however the interface will work.

Sure, you could just draw lines between absolutely everything and maybe discover something by chance, but it does get unfeasible at some point, if you've even got the nodes you need, since you need to make them yourself by taking snapshots at the right times of the right motifs, so I think that's fine.



Quack!

Is it possible to find people in the overworld just by wandering around in the present, or will they always be behind some sort of obstacle that you need the coordinator to help with? If the former, would you be able to tell the coordinator about it even without having made a connection in the subscreen?

The latter. Hopefully all the above babbling should make it clear (and why) that no, you can't tell them without having made the connection and spawned the node that serves as the correct dialogue option~

Regarding when the coordinator is ready to fetch a person: What if they gave you an "I'm ready" / "Hold on a minute" dialogue option? Then, when you say you're ready, it would just be a cutscene walk. Maybe even a force-follow where you can still move the camera around? Also, this whole thing might still be a bit ludonarrative dissonancey if you wait for a long time to say you're ready while the person is out there dying...

I spent some more time thinking after reading this and I think I might just go for cutscening the whole thing, especially since you'll be doing it over and over again and I can't imagine it'll be fun repeating the same kind of walk repeatedly, especially since you already know where it is after checking it out in the past. So basically just fade to the characters reaching the spot, moving some rubble, fade to them carrying the person, fade to them being back in the base, all within the span of a few seconds, perhaps even skippable.

There might be some instances at a certain point into the game where you actually can't get inside just by moving rubble (something I already had planned for a while but also hadn't properly thought about how to implement before now), where you need to get access to some kind of prop (like a key) and have to scour the past for clues to where to find it, again making connections and using nodes to figure it out, in which case the cutscene will stop halfway and force you back prematurely.

Random idea that might not make any sense in the design. If someone is speaking but is out of earshot, what if you showed faint speech bubbles with garbled-looking text, but as you get within earshot, it becomes clearer? It could also serve as a nudge towards "maybe I should talk to that person in the present".

Yes, for sure, should be able to see that people are speaking, even if you can't make it out! Hand Thumbs Up Right

This is a super exciting update! I can absolutely see and feel the game through it!

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oahda
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« Reply #641 on: January 20, 2022, 04:24:21 PM »

Today's update is a complementary mockup of the stuff I just described:



So I think you'll have a sort of "pinboard" where you can move nodes around as well as a timeline (bottom) to pick more nodes from to add to the pinboard. Will use different shapes to differentiate them.

Broadly, three types of node:

  • Situation: the snapshots you take in the past, with those metadata info bits, and a speech bubble telling you whose testimony it was taken from. One already on the pinboard in this picture, and one on the timeline that can be dragged onto the pinboard.

  • Profile: name and/or description of a person, place, prop or the like, like the four character profiles you see here.

  • Connection: discrepancy, relationship, and so on, like the child/parent one here. These are always hooked up to at least one other node.

On the timeline you can change whose testimony you're looking at, and jump between the snapshots you've collected. On the pinboard you can draw lines between nodes, and if the game agrees with you, something will happen.

When you speak to a character in the present timeline, this screen will pop up to let you pick a node or one of its specific pieces of info (e.g. "person, dead" to ask who it is), perhaps even letting you select the line between nodes to ask about the connection.

Spicy character names are just for the mockup, taken from the ancient 2D prototype—I have proper names for some of them already but not everyone so I went with this for now. Cheesy

I also tried making everything separate like this but too messy, so won't go with this:



I think what I can do, instead of stacking outlines around all the motifs in a situational node all at once, is to show the outline only for the currently highlighted piece of metadata, like so:

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« Reply #642 on: January 21, 2022, 01:24:21 AM »

I see that your earlier image of



wasn't just a joke but an accurate description of your current workflow, hahaha
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oahda
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« Reply #643 on: January 21, 2022, 02:48:33 AM »

Will try to make it as non-messy as possible Gomez Perhaps even the child/parent node could be changed to one of those grey info listings that just says "Parent: Fennel" for instance, and then if you focus it maybe a preview of Fennel's profile pic shows, and if you confirm you jump over to their actual node on the pinboard?

Or is that more disorienting than just having the lines between the nodes? Lines makes it clearer at a glance but might get overwhelming once you get a lot of connections and nodes, tho I could try and come up with some good ways to filter nodes as well?

Could be a combination too. A dedicated grey info strip for each connection with its own line connector might still look cleaner than having five lines to different things all coming out of a single master connector on the profile node, the way it is in the mockup.

With an option to focus on nodes and fading out any that are not somehow connected to it, maybe?

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JobLeonard
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« Reply #644 on: January 21, 2022, 05:08:52 AM »

I think assigning certain values that increase when reading the image left-to-right would help.

For example, generations. So parents are always to the left of their children.
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oahda
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« Reply #645 on: January 21, 2022, 05:44:30 AM »

Hm, yeah. Maybe there could be different "views" or something. I think you want completely freeform sometimes when you care more about other connections and you just want to cluster nodes that are connected for some other reason. Could be a separate family tree view, maybe?

Or just a robust filter system to go with that fading out of irrelevant nodes.

Say you select the Bayleaf profile node to focus it, any nodes not connected to it fade out, so you're already filtering by Bayleaf's connections. If you focus specifically on the "Parent: Fennel" listing, only nodes serially connected to that will be non-faded (so nodes connected to Bayleaf in general will also fade out if they're not specifically connected to this piece of info).

Then additionally you can click some "sort" button to order things generationally like you suggest? And you can confirm this new positioning, or cancel to have the nodes revert back to your custom organisation?

I do like this sort of idea more than the separate views, since it allows you to use the same few tools for everything and it seems quite intuitive to me. If family connections really do become a big deal (I'm not sure they will) a separate static family tree view could still be available for reference I guess.

EDIT:
The more I started thinking about this, the more I started envisioning the actual control scheme as well as art for this… Blink Like for gamepad you'd have a cursor on the screen basically like a mouse cursor, in the form of the tip of a paintbrush, and you press the action button to focus the node below it, or one of its info listings. Then you can use the shoulder buttons to follow a line on either side, so you can speed along all of the connections, back and forth? And when you make a new connection, that brush tip cursor will actually paint the line? Cheesy
« Last Edit: January 21, 2022, 06:00:17 AM by Prinsessa » Logged

JobLeonard
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« Reply #646 on: January 21, 2022, 06:13:35 AM »

Or it's free form with sorting options that do automatic layout... but maybe I shouldn't suggest that you re-invent graphviz Cheesy
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oahda
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« Reply #647 on: January 21, 2022, 06:17:14 AM »

Well, that's basically what I meant now, maybe unclear haha Cheesy
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« Reply #648 on: January 24, 2022, 12:48:25 AM »

Wow, the whole nodes as dialogue system is very intriguing! I'm just curious: are there other detective games with similar mechanics that you take inspiration from?
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oahda
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« Reply #649 on: January 24, 2022, 05:46:49 AM »

Thanks! Not directly, it's just what seemed to solve my game's specific needs in the best and most natural way Smiley There are other games that also use pinboards with lines/string to connect stuff, like Life is Strange, or Shadows of Doubt right here on TIG—and as is pointed out in that thread it's a classic representation of this sort of stuff—but I'm not sure about other games using it as dialogue options, tho I wouldn't be surprised Cheesy

EDIT:
Wow, in the usual fashion, a cosmic coincidence hit, and a day after writing this I did stumble across something with quite big similarities (find "ideas", pick one, character comments on it, in a time travel context)! Shocked Looks cool: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1479890/Inua__A_Story_in_Ice_and_Time/
« Last Edit: January 25, 2022, 08:06:40 AM by Prinsessa » Logged

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« Reply #650 on: January 24, 2022, 08:45:11 AM »



I'd say this ^ version of the parent/child connection is the least intuitive to me out of the ones you've shown. I expect Bayleaf's "Parent" handle to connect into "Bayleaf" on Fennel's node (and likewise for Child/Fennel).

The dedicated "child/parent" node in your first image is the most clear and intuitive (so far). It has pros/cons with positioning though. Good that it allows a linear path from parents to children (easier to organize), but not so good in that it could get cumbersome if you have a bunch of them crowding up the space later in the game.

Maybe the "child/parent" nodes could go in the Profile nodes themselves? Like a gray box under Bayleaf and Fennel that says "child | parent". Bayleaf's "parent" handle would connect to the Fennel's "child" handle.

I think what I can do, instead of stacking outlines around all the motifs in a situational node all at once, is to show the outline only for the currently highlighted piece of metadata, like so:
I like this, but will you be able to expand the snapshot to see a bigger version while also highlighting elements? Seems like it'd be too small to be all that useful otherwise.

Or just a robust filter system to go with that fading out of irrelevant nodes.
I like this too! Cleaner than the inverse of highlighting relevant info -- though maybe it could be useful to sometimes combine the fading-out of irrelevant info with the highlighting of especially pertinent info?
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oahda
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« Reply #651 on: January 24, 2022, 12:22:11 PM »

Agree, not quite happy with it, but I do think not having a separate node will be for the best, so need to figure out the best way to do it without it. Tongue

Like a gray box under Bayleaf and Fennel that says "child | parent". Bayleaf's "parent" handle would connect to the Fennel's "child" handle.

The problem with this is that "Bayleaf has a child" is one fact that you could choose to focus on in a dialogue, and "Bayleaf's child is Fennel" is another, so each of those needs to be available on the card*, and if someone has more than one child, I want an entry for each, not several lines coming out of a single connector, or we're back to the mess from the first mockup where everything was coming out of a connector at the bottom of the card. Giggle

I like this, but will you be able to expand the snapshot to see a bigger version while also highlighting elements? Seems like it'd be too small to be all that useful otherwise.

Yeah, you'll even be able to jump completely back into exploring the past at that exact time and place! Gomez

though maybe it could be useful to sometimes combine the fading-out of irrelevant info with the highlighting of especially pertinent info?

Possibly! Did you have something particular in mind? o:



* You select one of the labels on either side of the dividing line in a grey box separately, not the box as a whole. The dividing line is not necessarily the final design, because there might be more than two things that belong together, so I probably have to go with some kind of substack thing instead.

If you remember way back I talked about the snapshot mechanic storing information like this:

A system of "verbs" allows NPC's to see not just who is in a photograph, but what they're doing (such as hugging each other, or being dead). They can then react accordingly depending on what they are shown.

So I only showed intransitive verbs in the mockup, not acting on anything else, but for transitive verbs involving objects, you'll get things like "Fennel | hugging | Bayleaf" or even "Yarrow | chopping | tree | with axe", so I need the nodes to be able to express all of this, and to let you focus on any of these facts ("it was Yarrow chopping", "it was chopping Yarrow did", "it was a tree Yarrow was chopping", or "Yarrow used an axe to chop"). Who, Me?

I'm wary of tying it to English word order, not to throw a wrench into localisation, so I need each piece of information to be presented in more or less the same way so that the interface works universally. I think a tree structure would work well for this:

Code:
Yarrow
|
+--> chop
     |
     +--> tree

The question is how to get the instrument ("using an axe") into this structure. It can't just be listed with the tree because Yarrow wasn't chopping the axe like they were chopping the tree, they were chopping with the axe.

I could split it into two separate verbs, "Yarrow | using | axe" and "Yarrow | chopping | tree" but then we kind of lose the direct connection between the chopping and the axe, plus technically they could be holding the axe in one hand and doing the chopping with their other hand using a machete or something, who knows? Cheesy I think I want a separation between incidental stuff (maybe Yarrow is "wearing | hat" at the same time but it's not relevant to the chopping) and completely coupled stuff like this.

The instrument could just be on the same level as the verb, perhaps bringing back that line, since it's basically adverbial.

Code:
Yarrow
|
+--> chop | with axe
     |
     +--> tree

It looks a little convoluted when we only have one thing like this, but it's very consistent and extendible once we get multiple simultaneous verbs and/or objects. Plus we can use the line when people are doing something together as well, and it can be recursive!

Code:
[subject(s)] Oregano | Ginger
|
+--> [verb] carry | [adverb] with stretcher
     |
     +--> [object(s)] Fennel
          |
          +--> [verb] dead

Managed to solidify this right here and now in writing this response, so thanks again for the back and forth! Kiss

What does this mean for the parent/child stuff where the "subject" is already specified by the profile node itself? My idea before, the reason it seemed a bit backwards, was that basically on Bayleaf's card, Fennel was the subject of "being Bayleaf's parent". But I agree this is unnecessarily confusing, and profile nodes don't have to be organised just like situational nodes—there's a reason they're separate node types after all.

That said, I think info entries on profile nodes should still be internally consistent, and not every piece of info is going to be an interpersonal relationship, so what makes the most sense to also convey things like "Bayleaf works in the café"? I think inverting the whole relationship (e.g. "child of Fennel") is tricky to reconcile with this, but I think we can change the presentation to make it clearer, and make it like a list of facts (e.g. "parent: Fennel", "workplace: café") instead of "Fennel | parent"? Shrug It also needs to encompass having only half the information, like "parent: unknown" or even "unknown relationship: Fennel" (bit too long to fit, needs work).

Another change is to make any lines referencing a profile (including the parent/child listings but also most subjects, objects and perhaps even adverbial props) just connect to the profile node as a whole, and not its corresponding listing (so "parent: Fennel" doesn't connect specifically to Fennel's "child: Bayleaf" but to the top or bottom of the Fennel node).

Whew, sorry for writing so much! WTF Gives you some insight at least!

A final thought is that I think lines between nodes should probably be faded out when no node is focussed, and then only lines connected to a focussed node will fade in with that node and those connected to it, to combat mess.

To finish this off, an updated mockup (excuse the discrepancy between Tarragon's snapshot picture and description, don't wanna make a tree-chopping picture just for this):

« Last Edit: January 25, 2022, 12:43:36 AM by Prinsessa » Logged

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« Reply #652 on: January 24, 2022, 01:43:17 PM »

Wow okay yeah there was a whole lot more to this system than I realized! I understand your dilemmas now, and I think your latest mockup is much better.

Possibly! Did you have something particular in mind? o:
I suppose I was imagining something like Unreal's blueprint system, where it highlights the current code execution path. Not sure if that'd ever be useful in your game. I think what you have in the latest mockup is great.

On Profiles:
  • So it seems like not all Profiles will have the same info (gray boxes) in them. I guess this means info only appears there once you've learned it through testimony? For example, Fennel has no "Parent: whoever" info presumably because it's totally irrelevant (at the moment).
  • If Fennel had several "Child: whoever" boxes, what would the difference be between the "Child" part of each of those? Would you need a tree view for this as well? What about multiple workplaces with different relevant traits (full-time, part-time, etc)? Shocked

On Situations:
The verb | adverb thing in the mockup feels like a good solution, but it is limited to just one adverb (which may be a good limit to have!). Example: I don't see how you could do "Tarragon -> chopping | with axe | while screaming". Screamy

All that may just be going deeper than necessary. I do think your tree view ideas, so far, do a good job of presenting lots of info in an intuitive and easy-to-work-with way. A clean solution to a very messy problem!  Hand Thumbs Up Right
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« Reply #653 on: January 24, 2022, 04:27:46 PM »

Yay! Grin Really helpful questions once again, let's see…

I guess this means info only appears there once you've learned it through testimony? For example, Fennel has no "Parent: whoever" info presumably because it's totally irrelevant (at the moment).

Correct! Card is empty until you learn something, tho as you saw what you learn can be partial. You might also have a profile on someone you don't know the appearance or name of yet, but who has a connection.

I think the rest of your questions can be more or less answered by saying that yes, there will have to be some reasonable limit to these things by design, making sure you're never getting too much all at once Cheesy

So we might not see multiple identical unspecified entries at all, but if we do I imagine I'd make all of them yield the same replies from your companions until one of them gets filled in through this process.

Likewise I might just ensure no verb goes with more than one adverb, but if there are any exceptions I think perhaps they could stack on the right?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2022, 05:09:18 AM by Prinsessa » Logged

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« Reply #654 on: January 28, 2022, 07:19:44 AM »

Happy to see you're still hard at work on this game plus your game engine. A big endeavor indeed but that makes it all the more interesting and enjoyable. Smiley The pinboard idea looks pretty interesting. I have a bit more catch up to do on all of your progress. Blink

Cheers
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oahda
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« Reply #655 on: January 28, 2022, 02:23:20 PM »

Hey, thanks! Coffee
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« Reply #656 on: February 02, 2022, 01:34:28 PM »

Wow, that's a lot of things done. Great job, Princessa. And the system behind the pictures mechanic looks to be quite complex. Looks like a more complex version of the Life Is Strange's "connect-the-dots-style" thing, if I am not mistaken.

Awesome work!!! Keep going! 
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oahda
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« Reply #657 on: February 03, 2022, 11:45:36 AM »

Thank you so much! Kiss Bit more on that system coming up below…



49

Information

Collecting it, handling it, using it. That's what this game's all about. If you've already read through the discussion in the thread since the last numbered update, there's not much new here, but this update is meant as the one-stop summary of the conclusions made.

Context

Quick reminder:

  • The game plays out in two timelines: present and past. Before and after the town is destroyed by a flood.

  • In the present, you find survivors through deduction based on your information, rather than directly through exploration (you can walk around and you can find information in the present too, but not people, as they're always hidden and inaccessible to you by yourself in one way or another), and bring them back to your "base". There you can talk to them.

  • The past isn't true time travel, but a retelling from the perspective of the one you're talking to, so you'll have access to more of this timeline the more witnesses you have. But you get to play it by moving around it in it like normal gameplay, with control over the flow of time.

  • You can take snapshots of moments in the past and use the information there as conversational options in the present. These are not photographs, as in earlier iterations of the game, but simply mental notes that the player character takes. There will be a few things in the present to snapshot as well when you explore that may connect back to something you learnt about the past.

Example

I implemented a rough version in the Unity prototype of some nodes and connections that will be used in the game's tutorial to teach you how to play and find your second witness with the help of the first one.



As you can see, this is how dialogue options work in the game. You, and your companion character(s) carry out a conversation using the information you've gathered so far in order to suss things out. I'll make sure to make it clear when you're midway through a conversational thread by keeping the stuff you already picked highlighted or put into a stack on the side or something like that.

The interface of course will be nicer. The mockup from earlier in the thread is a little more friendly (in the final game it'll fit into the watercolour style):



As discussed, there will also be ways to organise, sort and filter these in various ways, or to fade irrelevant ones out to focus in on particular connections.

Player's point of view

So, what you need to know about nodes in-game:

  • In the past you can go into first person view and anything "nodeworthy" within sight will be focussed (receive an outline and a text label, or something like that) and you can store what you see as a picture on a node listing this information as seen in the mockup.

  • Each piece of information is selectable as a dialogue option, and able to connect to pieces of information on other nodes. You can focus on a particular aspect of a situation ("it was Tarragon chopping" or "chopping what was they were doing") depending on your choice.

  • Depending on what you know already, information can be partial, e.g. "(someone) is chopping the tree", and you can ask people in the present if they know who fits the description and fill it in that way.

Developer's point of view

I've learnt a lot about what's going to have to go into the full version of this while throwing the proof of concept together quickly in Unity, so I'm very glad I went for this first.

I feel like I've managed to distill the concept into something fairly simple for the player to understand at this point, but of course the game needs to keep track of a lot of stuff for this all to work. What does the player know, what does each individual character know, where are we in the story and would any of them have reason to lie or misremember?

I think making the player character an actual person with their own lines helps give weight to the story while at the same time making clear that the information is theirs in-world, and not yours, making it less weird if you've played the game before and already know something; the character still doesn't. And regardless, the node system means you can't even talk about something until you've managed to connect or collect stuff to spawn the node you need anyway. Smiley

Additionally, as you saw in the GIF, conversational threads with awareness of the previously selected nodes in order to make those connections! There was a bunch of convoluted hardcoded logic to make that particular set of exchanges come together, but I'm going to have to turn that into a robust and flexible yet manageable system for the full game. This prototype is helping me figure out what I'll need for that.

And I'm excited about doing so! It'll be a lot of work, not least on all the content in and of itself, but the game is finally feeling really tangible.

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« Reply #658 on: February 03, 2022, 12:00:48 PM »

Thanks for the summary! I try to keep up but it's hard.

Good to know your "change of course" to focus on the prototype paid off.

How about lies? could someone retell the events in a way that isn't true? maybe it could create like a paradoxical 'past' with things not quite aligning. The same person in two places at once, for example.
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« Reply #659 on: February 03, 2022, 02:18:56 PM »

Hey, princessa.

This post presents what you did in the game more clearly. Truthfully, I've skimmed through it, but this post is the glue that binds everything together.

The way you wrote it makes me think about old murder mystery series like Murder, She Wrote or some Hercule Poirot, but you're the one doing the thinking (meaning the player).

Very interesting. Keep it up!!
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