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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesVideo Games, High Art, Roger Ebert & the Cultural Ghetto
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Author Topic: Video Games, High Art, Roger Ebert & the Cultural Ghetto  (Read 4165 times)
ThemsAllTook
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« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2019, 09:14:30 AM »

I've got no real reason to be here, other than to perhaps have genuine interaction with other gamedevs.

Isn't that what you're having here? What I see reading this thread is a mostly-respectful debate about the artistic merit of a work. It's totally OK for you not to like Shit Game, and I feel like it should be OK with you for other people to see something genuine in it. We don't need a consensus on things like this.
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2019, 11:53:41 AM »

Yeah I guess that's what it is, I actually think Shit Game deserves a better name frankly, as it has more merit than just shit.

I worry that I argue too much, so I sort of over-correct and that's also an issue too.
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Golds
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« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2019, 02:31:20 PM »

A little bit of controversy and disagreement makes for entertaining reading. It certainly worked for Ebert. We're still talking about him years after he's been gone. I've enjoyed jousting with you over my little dumb game.  Gomez

I've actually never seen any of your work. I suppose I should look it up and check it out.
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« Reply #43 on: October 24, 2019, 10:00:20 AM »

I'm glad you enjoyed our conversation.

I'm usually quite proud of my work which I suppose is off putting or something. I've done a bunch of things, some more artsy, some political, some just for fun, if you @golds, or anyone on tig have any questions or critique feel free to reach out.

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Pfotegeist
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« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2019, 04:44:44 PM »

On a personal level I'm starting to think of the value of video games as an asset. If there's some argument that art must have merit then an asset has merit. A toy is an asset to someone who must occupy their mind. An application is an asset to someone who believes they can make use of it.

High art, I assume that people will look at it, and attribute their behavior to it. So it was high art! My clock is now glowing 5 am and I just sat down after lunch.


Anyways, the video I'm pasting here is probably going to be overkill since it is more in line with, can games be art?



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michaelplzno
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« Reply #45 on: December 10, 2019, 09:49:09 PM »

This conversation is driving me Bananas:



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Mark Mayers
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« Reply #46 on: December 25, 2019, 10:47:58 PM »

boy oh boy how did I miss this juicy thread
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« Reply #47 on: December 25, 2019, 10:48:24 PM »

This conversation is driving me Bananas:





I would have eaten that Banana too tbh
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #48 on: December 26, 2019, 02:52:59 AM »

Only if its free:



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Golds
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« Reply #49 on: December 27, 2019, 04:51:14 AM »

An interesting inside look at Atari's internal arcade game development process during the early 1980s at the height of their cultural power.




The thing about their market research not favoring random rewards struck me as odd, especially given how successful Nintendo was at introducing them through Mario and other games, and of course given the rise of roguelikes and... "loot boxes"

But their basic rules from player research are still interesting:

"Players want detail, movement, three dimensional effects, color & color changes, unexpected events, faster games with more realistic & dynamic sound"

Good principles for games from any era. MoMA has Atari's Asteroids, Pong & Tempest in their permanent collection, but Atari itself could not forsee the 1983 crash, nor the appearance & domination of Nintendo in the arcade and then the home market, and then Sony, and Microsoft. The Atari Jaguar was their last grasp at relevance, but at least it gave us Tempest 2000.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2019, 05:02:31 AM by Golds » Logged

@doomlaser, mark johns
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« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2019, 02:50:39 PM »

"Players want detail, movement, three dimensional effects, color & color changes, unexpected events, faster games with more realistic & dynamic sound"
shouldn't "people like technologically impressive stuff" be a no-brainer though
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2019, 10:22:54 PM »

@Schoq I got a lot of guff with people saying that tech stuff isn't impressive and people want EMOTION when I was starting out. There were a lot of people asking if games can make you cry, and can games evoke as many emotions as film. As I've said, I find art to be the synthesis of logic and emotion, which is why things like those dog shelter commercials with the sad music aren't art. (There is a category of games that make a lot of noise about being A R T that I also disregard for the same reason) Of course by the same argument, sudoku which only evokes logical thought also fails to make that mythical status as well.

I also argue pretty strongly that to be an artist you must have technique and virtuosity, as in, it is impossible to create art without first mastering your craft. So in that way, its clear to me that you cannot make a game that is art if it doesn't run correctly. I've seen some people make stuff that is sort of "LOL IT DOESN'T WORK" but that kind of artistic statement belongs in the rubbish bin imo.
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« Reply #52 on: December 28, 2019, 11:02:43 PM »

I'm not sure why that's @me but I think your argument is confused. how are you connecting this stuff about visibly impressive tech with logic puzzles in the end product?
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« Reply #53 on: December 29, 2019, 11:06:51 AM »

Well impressive tech is more about displaying impressive visual art, its rare that a technology alone is impressive, unless there is some kind of visual element that blows people away.

In terms of sudoku vs the sad sad games that point was somewhat tangential but I stand by it. Neither type of game relies on impressive technology. I compare the technical prowess to virtuosity, most people aren't impressed by someone playing a piano piece that is difficult to play just for the sake of playing something difficult, so too with the technology: people aren't impressed by it, they just want the stuff to work.

Games like Minecraft have a technological innovation as well as impressive visuals and that is why it works. For example I did a game with voxels years before Minecraft in 2006 and even I didn't think it was particularly artistic:





A lot of my early stuff was called "Tech Demos" more than anything worthy of respect. I'm not sure if that was fair but a LOT of people in games don't think tech is impressive. Now that may be a negotiating tactic: oh your code isn't valuable, so take lower pay etc. But there is some truth to the fact that you need at least some emotional aspect to your game in order to reach people in an artistic way, hence my dissing sudoku.
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« Reply #54 on: December 29, 2019, 12:14:49 PM »

minecraft is the opposite of visually impressive if you don't engage with the systems, even the most beautiful screenshot from the game is pretty hideous. The extreme point of this is probably dwarf fortress.
are you sure you're not missing something essential by thinking about games as art in terms of a logic puzzle/sad puppies dualism? could it be more useful to think about how well a game succeeds in being an engaging experience regardless? How much and how broadly it occupies your mind?
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« Reply #55 on: December 29, 2019, 02:26:23 PM »



So you are arguing that the tech doesn't matter, because voxel's are a big innovation and a new thing whereas this game, which has weak tech, (I once read a review about falling through the map) is?



Or perhaps you are arguing that AAA and the pursuit of "photo-realism" is the most impressive visuals?



Its hard to call any one of these more impressive than the last imo, they each have their own artistic aesthetic that is well defined and appealing.

Re "Engaging" sure, but if that is your definition of art it implies that games like candy crush are the highest art as they get the most playtime, or perhaps Clash of Clans or Auto Chess or whatever the current thing is but I like that: casual games that make you play a lot and really engage are the best art. Oddly self serving but hey I like it!
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« Reply #56 on: December 29, 2019, 07:36:32 PM »

no I'm saying minecraft is ugly, with the broader implication emphasized by the more obvious df example, that something can be very bland or ugly visually while still being extremely technically impressive in a way that is only apparent once you've actually interacted with or studied the game's systems.

engagement is a useless measurement if it's just about duration, that's why I appended this
Quote
How much and how broadly it occupies your mind?
If you think you'll arrive at something easily quantified when talking about What Should Count As High Arte you're gonna be disappointed.
You can also think of it in terms of how long the experience stays in your mind after you've spent time with it directly. how many different parts of your being it touched and perhaps moved. how much you feel it relates to the greater experience of existing as a human.
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« Reply #57 on: December 30, 2019, 07:43:58 AM »

Re "Minecraft is Ugly" I disagree but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Re "How much and how broadly it occupies your mind?" This is fought with issues. I cite the tickle machine in Lupin the III's original tv show directed by Hayao Miyazaki:



Such a device would be the best art? Or perhaps eating a big piece of cheesecake? Or gambling... drugs? A lot of stuff "occupies your mind" but isn't art.
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« Reply #58 on: December 30, 2019, 09:50:33 AM »

oh yeah I remember the part where I said mind occupation is the definition of art rather than suggesting it as a useful tool for gauging art
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« Reply #59 on: December 30, 2019, 10:02:25 AM »

Yes, definitionally, a trauma that consumes your thoughts for many years would be considered art? Maybe not good art, but art none the less?
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