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[jbarrios]

I've been thinking about this for some time and I want to crowd source it.

For context I'm talking about Western Style RPGs.  The kind where the player is supposed to project onto the Avatar.  Games like The Elder Scrolls, Mass Effect, Gothic, Dark Souls, etc...

I've never really cared about Character Creators in single player games.  In fact I usually just go with the default choice and start the game.

How important is it to you?  Would it affect whether you buy the game or not?

Because I'm an indie dev I'm always looking for what can be cut.

[Thaumaturge]

Hmm... I'm not sure of how important it is to me, personally.

When the character is somewhat generic (as opposed to fixed, specific characters like the Nameless One from Planescape: Torment) I think that I do like making a character that feels like it's "my own". However, one of my favourite RPGs (albeit an RPG/adventure hybrid), Quest for Glory, offers no customisation beyond the choice of class. Further, I don't think that the presence of a character-creator is one that I generally make a point of looking for.

So, if at all, I don't think that it's terribly important to me, at the least.

That said, I suspect that there are those for whom it is an important feature, whether for personalisation, representation, or even just because they enjoy the process of creating a character.

One potential compromise might be to offer a set of varied, pre-made characters. That might allow players some degree of choice and self-representation, without the expense of building a full character editor. (I think that Tin Man Games' adaptation of The Warlock of Firetop Mountain did something like this.)

[Foxwarrior]

I don't seek out character creators, but when presented with one I'll happily sink half an hour into making the most striking countenance possible, and smile a little when I see the character's face in cutscenes and such.

[Ordnas]

Thinking through, in multiplayer the character customization has a meaning, in a single player is just a way to increase the attachment you have on your alter ego. I think it is something that big studio have the time and money to add, for am indie can be skipped. I am also do not mind it in a game, I just use the default/create similar to the cover hero and thats all. For games like Fallout, where you see your character during dialogues, can probably make a difference in terms of likable character to some.

[Thaumaturge]

As it happens, I just saw this thread on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/16pxl/status/1196482794907504641

In short (at time of writing), it's someone talking about their enjoyment of character creators, and others chiming in to similar effect.

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

interesting tweet and there's some interesting replies.

If I'm forced to pick from 8 choices and none of them are cute enough I'm automatically less interested and the game has to do a lot to win me back

expectation scale from character creators has gone pretty high with the latest aaa releases (code vein is a good example even though it has coop-multiplayer).




 

[Ordnas]

Of course but if someone replies that "if there are 8 characters and none are cute", then I do not think that it will be interested in the story or in the gameplay. Depends also on the target audience, IMHO are casual gamers the ones that look at the aesthetic to decide if the game is good or not.

[Thaumaturge]

Of course but if someone replies that "if there are 8 characters and none are cute", then I do not think that it will be interested in the story or in the gameplay. Depends also on the target audience, IMHO are casual gamers the ones that look at the aesthetic to decide if the game is good or not.

Not necessarily in both cases, I think. For some people aesthetics (or representation) may simply be equally important to gameplay or story, even if they're non-casual gamers. Indeed, I'm pretty confident that I've encountered at least one non-casual gamer like this.

(For that matter, I've turned down games that looked interesting mechanically, but that I disliked aesthetically. That was one of the turn-offs for me in Dusk and Beyond Evil, for that matter.)

[Ordnas]

Ok, I agree with you, if that aesthetic is present in the 80% of the game, so for example you hate cel-shading or pixel art there is nothing you can do, and no one can judge you if you are saying "I cannot stand this game". But of you do not play the game because "you cannot modify your main character" is different: how many times you will look at your character? Think about Dark Souls, you will spend 1 hour personalizing the hero, and then 99% of the game he/she is inside an armor!  
Or "I dislike The Witcher 3 because I do not like men with grey hair", it is a statement that would never come from a gamer.

[Thaumaturge]

Think about Dark Souls, you will spend 1 hour personalizing the hero, and then 99% of the game he/she is inside an armor! 

And yet, "fashion souls" is a meme, with players preferring equipment that looks good over simple utility.

Or "I dislike The Witcher 3 because I do not like men with grey hair", it is a statement that would never come from a gamer.

I'm... not convinced that that's true.

At the least, there's the representation issue: "I don't want to play Witcher 3 because I'm sick of playing grizzled white men. Let me play as a black person/woman/etc.!"

And again, look at that Twitter thread to which I linked above. There are a fair few people there saying that character customisation is indeed important to them.

[Schrompf]

I click "random" a few times and then get it out of my way. Ain't nobody get time for that.

[Kastlo]

I think I really enjoy when the character is already a character. What I mean by that is I prefer to know that the PC is someone who has its own set of values or view of the world, and I have to make the effort to understand him and what he would say in certain situation, rather than having to choose which answer is closest to what I would say.

To me it's just a way of further immerse oneself: if I created a character and I act in a way that is counter-intuitive to the context it's harder for me to believe in the world and its rules.

[jbarrios]

Thank you all for the input.  This is good discussion

[Thaumaturge]

One more second-hand report, if I may: I was recently listening to The Co-Optional Podcast, and both Genna Bain (the host, for those not familiar) and that week's guest were gushing about the character-creator in some particular game (I forget which, I'm afraid), and about how much they enjoyed it.

[andyfromiowa]

I think it depends on what the game emphasizes. For example, if the game focuses on enemies, settings and quests, then having a custom character works well - and I appreciate the ownership and self-expression of designing a character and seeing them in that world.

On the other hand, if the emphasis is on the main player's story, I find it more compelling to have a set character with a backstory and friends and enemies in the world. Custom characters often feel like tourists and don't feel integrated in the same way.

[michaelplzno]

Just to throw my hat in the ring here: I actually dislike character customization in single player games. To me its a bit too much work to try to make a character and a lot of times I just make something that looks like me with funny hair or a big nose or something.

For me, I have fun in being given a roll. Like Link or Mario, where I am working with the character and they have a bit of their own personality. I know there are a lot of gamers who feel the opposite, so this is my subjective view. But for example I was playing "Zak McKracken" (great but very difficult puzzler) and there are a bunch of set characters that are pre-scripted and have their own quips and stuff. Even though I didn't get to set their characteristics and personalities, I liked having them defined for me because it added to the narrative. I wasn't just generic protagonist, I actually had a bit more anchor into the world because the game design could say "oh the main character is a reporter who makes wise cracks" so they can create a more interesting world than if I could be any character they can't really build a universe around that.

Again, I'm not so sure that is on trend now-a-days but that is the kind of stuff I play and enjoy the most.

Edit: if I had arbitrary resources I would love to make a single player game where there are hooks and scripted events based on your character customization: like you can choose to wear sunglasses and people make jokes about it. I think some of the race selection had an impact like that in Skyrim? Alas for an indie that might be an absurd amount of production.

[GameMaker Rob]

I can't think of a time when I've disliked a character creation screen. Depending upon the level of detail it's actually pretty cool to play as a character that you made yourself, and if there is also gear to wear/use and or other cosmetic items then it can become a really solid part of the game.

A video by Jim Sterling talked about Code Vein and how awesome it was for him and others to be able to play their own character the whole way through.

Just look at how much time some people spend making characters in Skyrim and Oblivion lol...

If a game is story rich with a main protagonist that has their own background then I think a character creator becomes less important.

[Thaumaturge]

Just to throw my hat in the ring here: I actually dislike character customization in single player games.

...

Even though I didn't get to set their characteristics and personalities, I liked having them defined for me because it added to the narrative. I wasn't just generic protagonist, I actually had a bit more anchor into the world because the game design could say "oh the main character is a reporter who makes wise cracks" so they can create a more interesting world than if I could be any character they can't really build a universe around that.

I'm curious, if I may: have you played Dragon Age: Origins, and if so, how did you feel about their approach?

If you haven't, what that game basically did (if I recall correctly; it's been a while) was provide a character-creator, and then have the player choose from a selection of playable backgrounds that informed your character's backstory. These then had a few (relatively minor, I think) effects on certain storylines or conversations that you could encounter over the course of the game.

[michaelplzno]

I have not played DAO, I'm looking into it more now on some youtube lets plays. That story sort of leaves me cold, it feels like a sort of 'LoTR-Light' kind of plot line that isn't too inspired. But I'm a cynical butt so take my crit on that with a grain of salt.

I was watching this one:





Which I have notes about that opening scene being a bit slow and just kind of dull. I see that you get to sort of choose your backstory, which makes the choices more interesting. The appearance selector really doesn't do much for me, choosing your haircut, meh, I'd just randomize it. I can see in this video that these two players are SUPER into the appearance customization stuff, it leaves me cold.

On reflection I think this is a bit like making your own drink vs having someone make a drink for you: I just enjoy having some of the decisions made by the game instead of having to create my own thing. Mostly because I create characters for my own games so when I'm off the clock I want someone else to do it.

Edit: just to expand on my own design thoughts, if I were playing DAO as the character they chose in the video here I would instantly pick the "please make me get married" options in the dialogue selector just to go against the grain. Its so obvious that they want you to rebel against the marriage and I would love to play against the type they are pushing into. I hate choices that aren't really choices.

[Ordnas]

Dragon Age Origins is one or the best rpg ever made, so your critics is towards the rpg genre. Not just Origins but every rpg starts slow.

Rpg expecially the old ones focuses more on the lore and the politics, and less on the main character development (maybe is an exception Planetscape: Torment). Origins has one of the best introductions in an rpg, because the intro changes based on your race and is very dynamic if compared to other rpgs.