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May 17, 2021, 01:57:13 PM

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Schoq
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« Reply #60 on: April 28, 2021, 06:52:10 AM »

thanks just making sure
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #61 on: April 28, 2021, 09:22:08 AM »

I mean we could have a thread for everything:

The problems with Western Medicine.
The problems with the Church.
The problems with the American Education System.
The problems with the Police State in the USA.
The problems with the Housing Market.
...

Would that be good or attractive to any gamedev who wants to take part in discussion here? The saying is that from the crooked timbers of humanity no straight thing was ever made, but any engineer can tell you that you can make a lot from crooked timbers. Especially if you analyze the timber in question in a real way and look for options on how to proceed.

I don't see how poking at flaws of any system with snake oil solutions that might even be dangerous is going to be productive unless at some point you start talking about real and proven ways to fix something. "Oh there are homeless so let them live at starbucks because starbucks is a garbage corporation anyway, here is an hour long discussion of the merits of that idea..."

I don't see jsnake as offering any answers here, nor you.
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J-Snake
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« Reply #62 on: April 28, 2021, 10:24:01 AM »

the vaccine is safe: I had mine and I didn't even have any side effects.
You are pushing a non-scientific statement. Just stressing because you seem to insist on the importance of rigorous science so much.

Plus, you should be careful in putting blind trust into science today. Doing actual rigorous science is hard, and in many fields practically impossible (your experience in the field you have touched may differ, but that is not the case everywhere). What makes the matter worse is that the train driving scientific research is often fueled by financial and possible other interests, while actual truth-seeking takes a back-seat.
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Schoq
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« Reply #63 on: April 28, 2021, 02:15:31 PM »

I don't see jsnake as offering any answers here, nor you.
mostly just want readers to absorb that with the simple act of not being such weird germaphobes and shut-ins on a societal level, fewer people would be unable to share a building with a peanut, fewer people would have to walk everywhere with an inhaler, fewer people would have to cry like a baby about tree cum eating their respiratory system half the year, fewer people would have a huge list of things they can't eat without their bowels disintegrating, and fewer people would die or be seriously affected by something like the novel coronavirus
it's a conversation that seems to never come up when talking public health, despite it being well documented and the course of action fairly obvious

it's hard to not at least suspect it could have something to do with it being harder to profit off of promoting and creating the conditions for healthier lifestyles than to continue to sell inhalers, allergy medication, flu shots, antibiotics, what have you, but I'll leave that as an aside
« Last Edit: April 28, 2021, 02:36:55 PM by Schoq » Logged

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J-Snake
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« Reply #64 on: April 28, 2021, 04:46:28 PM »

But things are not that simple. Just a hypothetical question: Imagine you can save the life of 0.01 percent of people, but in expense you weaken the health of all the other people, to a more or less noticeable degree. Would you prefer that to happen? Why not limiting the vaccination to the risk-group, and those who really want it, instead of pushing it on everyone?

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« Reply #65 on: April 28, 2021, 04:47:40 PM »

shut the fuck up jsnake

I don't see jsnake as offering any answers here, nor you.
mostly just want readers to absorb that with the simple act of not being such weird germaphobes and shut-ins on a societal level, fewer people would be unable to share a building with a peanut, fewer people would have to walk everywhere with an inhaler, fewer people would have to cry like a baby about tree cum eating their respiratory system half the year, fewer people would have a huge list of things they can't eat without their bowels disintegrating, and fewer people would die or be seriously affected by something like the novel coronavirus
it's a conversation that seems to never come up when talking public health, despite it being well documented and the course of action fairly obvious

it's hard to not at least suspect it could have something to do with it being harder to profit off of promoting and creating the conditions for healthier lifestyles than to continue to sell inhalers, allergy medication, flu shots, antibiotics, what have you, but I'll leave that as an aside

schoq there is a fuckin time and place to discuss systemic factors that got us to this fuckshit point and it is not imho when we need mass vaccinations to pull our stupid everything from the brink.

maybe im just tired but anything less seems ignorant of the realities of the situation to a point that it feels purposeless for anything less than an ego stroke. yeah, no shit, we are fucked up in many ways, our health care is dog water, our fucking habits as a culture are nightmarish and all of that is a breeding ground for the stew that brought us here. if you have been paying attention at all, you should know this. "told you so" does not help matters tho.

i agree, and i am worried myself, that IGNORING how we got here runs the risk of pushing things further back and setting up worse in the future. however it seems really weird to jump into a convo where someone is literally arguing that the vaccine is a bad idea (shut the fuck up, jsnake) imho



But things are not that simple. Just a hypothetical question: Imagine you can save the life of 0.01 percent of people, but in expense you weaken the health of all the other people, to a more or less noticeable degree. Would you prefer that to happen? Why not limiting the vaccination to the risk-group, and those who really want it, instead of pushing it on everyone?



shut the fuck up jsnake
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Mark Mayers
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« Reply #66 on: April 28, 2021, 05:21:21 PM »

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Schoq
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« Reply #67 on: April 28, 2021, 10:02:57 PM »

We already know the long term effects of fire extinguisher foam is it permanently poisons the water giving rise to hormonal disruptions and other very serious health issues in man and animal alike btw

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefighting_foam#Environmental_and_health_concerns

Caution when deploying novel technology at a mass scale is a good thing as the historical examples of catastrophic and irreversible consequences of things thought to be perfectly safe are thousands
That said risk groups definitely risk more catching the virus either way
« Last Edit: April 28, 2021, 10:13:41 PM by Schoq » Logged

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Schoq
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« Reply #68 on: April 29, 2021, 01:06:38 AM »

Extra point: vaccinating people outside of risk groups in rich countries while many poor countries can't even get started with groups actually at risk seems obscene, to me, personally
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J-Snake
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« Reply #69 on: April 29, 2021, 10:49:56 AM »

But, is the house even burning? How many people were actually reported to you, directly or indirectly, who had a severe ambulant case of covid? It only takes around 6 hops to reach any person on the globe. The only cases I heard of were few, and all of them were over 80 years old. But I heard of several cases of people dying shortly after vaccination, even young people. Would be interested to hear your stories.
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« Reply #70 on: April 29, 2021, 01:19:08 PM »

Lol. You claim scientific rigor, and then pass around lies of "several people dying after vaccination". You are free to decide for yourself if you want to risk the infection or the vaccination, the first being measurably a 1000x more deadly than the second. But please keep the bullshit to yourself.
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« Reply #71 on: April 29, 2021, 06:11:39 PM »

We already know the long term effects of fire extinguisher foam is it permanently poisons the water giving rise to hormonal disruptions and...

bruh
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« Reply #72 on: April 29, 2021, 08:20:33 PM »

But, is the house even burning? How many people were actually reported to you, directly or indirectly, who had a severe ambulant case of covid

if you applied the same level of obscene, unnecessary incredulity to your own ability to design games trap them would have gotten more than 17 steam reviews in six years
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J-Snake
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« Reply #73 on: April 30, 2021, 11:25:42 AM »

You claim scientific rigor, and then pass around lies of "several people dying after vaccination".
In other words, you see no point in answering my question.

First off, you are already pushing a claim you cannot possibly know. To give a telling example, I coincidentally met the owner of an apartment (during the search for a new apartment a short while back) who happens to be the chief doctor of a hospital in Luxembourg. The chemistry between us was right and we got into a conversion. Long story short, Luxembourg has around 600 000 people. He revealed that only 7 of all people had an ambulant case at that time, and all of them were over the age of 80.

Second, I think you misunderstand how the notion of science relates to all that. It is important to realize where scientific rigor can be applied, and where it has its limits. Concepts such as computational irreducibility help to understand that. For example, the effect of vaccination, or following a specific diet, cannot be predicted in advance. You have to rely on experience in these cases, or on studies. Now, studies are problematically associated with science, while experience is associated with something "non-scientific". Yet both have categorically the same conclusive power. Both can be equally valuable, or rubbish, depending on the gathered data and its interpretation. If you are not even willing to see how proposed claims match with your experience of the surrounding reality, at least as far as you can stretch it, then claims like "I am following the science" are meaningless and you are acting in a highly irresponsible manner. But what's more dangerous, you are then prone to be manipulated.

You are free to decide for yourself if you want to risk the infection or the vaccination, the first being measurably a 1000x more deadly than the second.
I know statements like these may sound alarming and convincing, yet there is zero conclusive information in this statement. For example, 1000x times approximately zero can still be approximately zero. Second thing, something doesn't have to be deadly in order to be harmful.

 
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Schoq
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« Reply #74 on: April 30, 2021, 05:40:29 PM »

We already know the long term effects of fire extinguisher foam is it permanently poisons the water giving rise to hormonal disruptions and...

bruh
always happy to educate. consider donating monthly to a locally relevant environmental protection organization.
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« Reply #75 on: May 01, 2021, 10:10:36 AM »

My point about getting the jab and having no side effects is factual and true, but it is somewhat rhetorical, I concede. And yes, there are flaws in research in all fields that I'm well aware of, as I say, the crooked timbers... flaws in everything, yada yada. And yes again, having a healthy immune system by not being a shut in and exercising and interacting with the environment does have some rigor to explain the benefits there. For example, taking walks outside with a mask on is probably a good idea even with Covid.

Do we kill one person to save the world? A thought experiment I don't want to really engage with, I'd have to know the facts of the situation to really know what is right there. For example, if God will save us from sin if we kill an innocent we are truly negotiating with a terrorist by caving on that one. If some lunatic is holed up with a nuclear bomb and we have a sniper shot to take him out, I do think it makes sense to take the shot.

With covid, there is a ton of empirical rigorous evidence that the jab is safe. Yes, if your immune system is healthy covid will affect you less, but the jab is objectively and rationally the best course to get past this crisis. It is the lesser of the evils, if you even want to consider it an evil, as my rhetorical point stands: I got it and had zero side effects and it was a non event.


I've posted this one before in this forum:





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J-Snake
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« Reply #76 on: May 01, 2021, 02:50:48 PM »

With covid, there is a ton of empirical rigorous evidence that the jab is safe.
There aren't sources to conclude that confident claim yet because you cannot outrun time, the data is still collected. You effectively participate in an experiment. To give it the benefit of the doubt, are you able to tell the sources for that evidence? And how do you then know that all sources with conflicting evidence are wrong?

as my rhetorical point stands: I got it and had zero side effects and it was a non event.
This would be the default case if you hadn't taken a shot at all. And as far as I have seen the data so far, the chance of being harmed by the virus is practically negligible for a young healthy person. Btw, some can get placebo shots without knowing. You also don't know how well you are now protected against various mutants that keep emerging. What's then the solution, messing with nature and getting vaccinated every few months? One thing for sure, big corporations and the involved elites will be happy to keep you on drugs. But not because they are concerned about your health.

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« Reply #77 on: May 01, 2021, 09:12:24 PM »

J-Snake was offered the cure to COVID but he threw it on the GROUND:





In all seriousness: the long term effects of vaccinations are well studied and there have been vaxes that have eliminated small pox and so on and those have been studied for the entire lifetime of people. Just like flu shots which are different each year, they are harmless. There are some side effects, which is known, but the odds of getting complications are much better than the odds of getting killed from COVID.

Now, I have not poured through the data and research myself, my sister who is a professional medical Doctor did, and she recommends getting the vaccination. I take it on faith that my sister is not part of some sinister cabal, and that she was not replaced with a lizard person during med school which she completed. She seems friendly enough.

They do not give placebos, I wasn't in a trial, I was in the real rollout of the vaccine. The big issue was that I had to get a ride to the actual site where they were doing it. The idea that they are giving out placebos is completely false, without any evidence at all.

Also even in the most paranoid cynical world view where corporations want to make you sick so you keep taking meds: the market wants COVID gone. If COVID is cured for real, the world economy will go up in a big way. So even the most libertarian selfish Ferengi profiteering mercantile cunning ruthless business person would want to cure COVID for real. And the current vaccine is shown to be effective for at least 6 months it may be even more than that.

Edit: Also there are known lasting side effects of getting COVID, its nasty and something you don't want to mess around with getting. The virus can damage the lungs, heart and brain, which increases the risk of long-term health problems.

Edit2: They have also studied the vax on some of the already existing variants and different kinds of vaxes have different effectiveness on some of the different strains, however it is much better to actually take the jab.

Edit3: I've already heard anecdotal stories about people who are young having really tough times with the virus so I'd have to see something peer reviewed that says kids aren't affected. In fact a new strain is much stronger with kids that I heard about.

GET THE DAMN JAB AND STOP BEING A BABY.
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« Reply #78 on: May 02, 2021, 01:59:37 AM »

Got my first vaccine yesterday and I feel totally fine.

Except now the Illuminati controls my nervous system and created assassin clones from my DNA sequence whoops.
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« Reply #79 on: May 02, 2021, 02:01:19 AM »

GET THE DAMN JAB AND STOP BEING A BABY.
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