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[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Here's another thing about game designer I just wrote in my LiveJournal. I'm interested in your thoughts here too, considering that I got good ones in the other topic I posted.

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Another bad habit I've noticed in the arts, but in game development in particular, is getting ideas from other artworks vs. getting ideas from real life. I think the first of those is a bad idea, not just because it leads to works being too generic, but also because it's not really the point.

Here's an example: someone looking to make a strategic war game could either get ideas mainly from other war games or get ideas from real wars. If they do the first, it'll be a game, but chances are the work won't say anything new about the topic that hasn't been said before. If instead they pore over war tomes they may find dozens of things that haven't been put in a game about war before.

I think the reason Will Wright's games have been so successful is that most of them are presenting something in a game which hasn't been presented before: the growth of a city, the growth of an ant hill, domestic life, the long journey from bacteria to space-faring civilization, and so on. Each one deals with something from real life and translates it to a game. To some extent his extreme has problems too: sometimes he creates something which is interesting but not fun to me (such as in The Sims, just because managing my own need to go to the bathroom is a part of real life doesn't mean it'd be fun in a game), but at least he has a higher success rate of hits than most game developers.

There's often a desire to make games similar to other games that you like. I started out making Japanese-console-style RPGs because that's what I liked playing; I also made a tower defense game because I liked playing them. But to make a game that isn't in any old genre (except, loosely, simulation) the only way to do that is to look at real life and try to make a game of some aspect of real life. And it can be anything, even things that already have games about them, as long as new things from life that have never been in a game before make it in.

I also think that it's a good idea to present seemingly mundane aspects of life as amazing. For instance, most games deal with topics that we'll never experience for ourselves: flying in space destroying aliens, going on a quest to defeat demons, ordering an army around to defeat Hitler, etc. -- and that's fine, but more mundane topics could seem as epic too. Kudos, a life simulator, I think was off to a good start, it made living everyday life and deciding whether to go out with your friends for dinner or to stay home and read instead seem epic. Dating sims are another example (though I never really found one too interesting to me). The Princess Maker games are also interesting, even though they're in a fantasy world they're really about raising a daughter, something a lot of people do.

[Alec]

I love games that have little details / little things that just have to do with day-to-day life. They might not even affect the game as a whole overall, but they add a lot to the experience for me. Makes the game's world feel more alive or a place that you'd want to visit if you could.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Yep, agreed. I liked that whole 'raising a family of cats and feeding them cat food' thing in Chrono Trigger for instance. Not an essential part of the game, but it adds something to think 'I have to go home and feed my cats!'

[frosty]

What about a third option: Games from... the Senses?  I'm thinking of mainly the abstract shooters where the exploration is mostly visual and/or musical.

But yeah, I don't think games are unique in that most of the creators stay close to what's come before.  I'd bet there's a universal ratio across all of the arts separating the adventurous from the mainstream.

Also, I think a lot of game designers tend to be technical types, who are uncomfortable (or unfamiliar) with artistic license -- they don't realize how much convention is dictating the design, and that it's okay to throw out the rules if they get in the way.  But it seems pretty common for indies to be multi-talented in music/art/etc, so maybe that's why you see more experimentation.  But I'm sure I'm not the only one here who thinks it's hard NOT to do retro. =)

I would also add that a good source for Games From Life are hobbies. You get to work on two things you like at the same time, and hopefully your passion comes across to the player.  That's what my most recent project comes from, and it's taking me out of my usual habits, so it's pretty cool.

[Oracle]

When you are a baby and cant talk, you start babbling, copying the others, and eventually you nail it,  drawing is basically the same, you start copying/tracing/whatever, until eventually you find your own "space" for creativity.

The most basic of actions when you are starting something new, is to mimic, it think this is the case here.. you mimic things, game mechanics, how they work..until eventually, you start creating all by your own. (some never do that though, and stick to the copying  like some game copanies :D)

[Michaël Samyn]

Also, I think a lot of game designers tend to be technical types, who are uncomfortable (or unfamiliar) with artistic license -- they don't realize how much convention is dictating the design, and that it's okay to throw out the rules if they get in the way.

Thank you for clearing that up.

But it seems pretty common for indies to be multi-talented in music/art/etc, so maybe that's why you see more experimentation.  But I'm sure I'm not the only one here who thinks it's hard NOT to do retro. =)

But I don't understand this. Why is it hard not to do retro?

[Melly]

I guess he means that retro is a niche that the mainstream doesn't catter to, and doing a good retro-styled game gets you more audience in the indie scene.

This reminds me of when Shigeru Miyamoto talked about how he made the first Zelda inspired by his childhood, going into forested areas and just exploring around for the heck of it, filling his child imagination with stories.

I guess a lot of people see games either as completely unrealistic, or realistic GTA/Sim games, and when taking inspiration from real life they usually come up with the next The Sims or Grand Theft Auto, instead of trying to make a real life theme into abstract game mechanics that don't need to go into simulation at all. There's a lot of inspiration to be had in real life sources if you stray away from simulation games.

For example, I have an idea for a game based around the most common life struggles people face, but made into metaphorical game mechanics and design. Sure, it's still a platformer, but platformers are a genre that's very easy to experiment with. Plus they're just fun.

[frosty]

But I don't understand this. Why is it hard not to do retro?

Maybe it's just when you hit a certain age, but...

- Fond memories of the classic games
- There's sort of built-in audience for it
- It's easier to start with something you know best
- The graphics are usually less time-consuming
- Arguably, there's a wider variety of games to take inspiration from

[Blaster]

As said, there are quite a few reasons why 'retro' is a popular convention that indies adhere to. I think for the most part it's simply because most of us have grown up with a strong love for dirty, dirty pixels, and sweet, sweet chiptunes.

(I personally think it's a completely legit style to work in, and it's not to say it isn't evolving. Pixel art has come a long way)




I don't think it's ultimately a bad idea to take influence from other games. It's just generally bad. It's possible to take influence from a number of different sources. As long as you do it intelligently, and are aware of it.

As you've noticed yourself, it's a very common thing amongst the arts, and whilst many do it badly, and tend to just follow the trends, you'll notice that at the head of each movement there are the artists who take these influences and use them to their benefit (like stepping-stones).

The ultimate material to draw from will always probably be nature (/life, or life being a part of nature, depending how you look at it), but I see no reason to rule anything else out.


That being said, when it comes to games (they're very much in their infancy), taking your main source of influence/main idea from another game doesn't seem nearly as interesting as taking it from something outside of video games.

*is a flippant person*

[Melly]

We should totally hold the next TIGS contest being "Make a game inspired by some aspect of real life, diverging from creating a simulation/GTA-like game."

It's one of those contests that's unusual enough (we usually see shmup/RPG/platformer contests that are pretty repetitive) that the entries end up being very interesting to look at. Ex.: The B-Game Compo.

Of course, just a suggestion.

[Michaël Samyn]

I think there's two phases in the process when inspiration plays an important role. The first is when an the first spark of an idea is ignited. The second is when you know what you want to make but you're not sure how.

For the first spark, as the reference to Miyamoto illustrates, nothing is better for inspiration than life itself. But for the second, when you're figuring out how to do it, it's probably a good thing to look at other games (if only to avoid the mistakes they made).

Now, from what I can tell (and the replies here to my retro question confirm this), many game designers get their initial idea from other games. And perhaps, for answering the question "how" they look to life itself?

Retro games are a nice form of fan art. But running after our own tails won't get us any further. We need more Miyamoto's, and less Miyamoto fans. In my humble opinion.

[Chris Whitman]

The Pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood called: they want their ideology back.

[Chris Whitman]

Seriously, though, I think that would be a good contest.

[Tr00jg]

Most ideas I get come from things that happen in life. Roach Toaster came from watching a riot on TV (odd?).

I think the tendency of most designers is to start inside the proverbial "box". They think... hmmm, lets make a strategy game. And then they want to get out of your normal "strategy" paradigm and come up with new ideas like say the game Perimeter.

It should start "outside" the box and then you should work the concept back to the best super-genre.

[Movius]

games are art.
art shouldn't be inspired by other art.
games shouldn't be inspired by other games.
games shouldn't be inspired by other art.
art shouldn't be inspired by other games.
games should imitate real life.
games shouldn't imitate other games.
good games imitate life.
good games don't imitate other good games which imitate life.
therefore good games shouldn't imitate life.
thus good games aren't inspired by life.
ergo games aren't art.

I think I understand this thread now.

[Alec]

games are art.
art shouldn't be inspired by other art.
games shouldn't be inspired by other games.
games shouldn't be inspired by other art.
art shouldn't be inspired by other games.
games should imitate real life.
games shouldn't imitate other games.
good games imitate life.
good games don't imitate other good games which imitate life.
therefore good games shouldn't imitate life.
thus good games aren't inspired by life.
ergo games aren't art.

I think I understand this thread now.

Who cares where tf games come from as long as they're good.

I mean, its interesting to talk about where everyone's inspirations come from. But if its about "DO WHAT I THINK IS RIGHT AND NOTHING ELSE" .... then fuck that.

[Melly]

No need to profanities Alec.

Also, Movius totally said that just to use 'ergo' in something. I can just SMELL it.

[Movius]

If games are ever to move forward as a medium than more people should use the word 'ergo' when writing about them.

Actually, if games are ever to move forward as a medium then anything that uses the phrase "if games are ever to move forward as a medium... " or words to that effect should be banned from publication.

[Robotacon]

I'm making a game in a meta-game environment where you're going to school becoming a game character but I draw more inspiration from the audio books we've got playing in the car at the moment. *cough* Harry Potter *cough*

[Alec]

Movius was being sarcastic about the thread, I was agreeing with him. (I think)

But I feel like a lot of discussion around here lately has been like

"I APPROVE THIS"

"I DISAPPROVE OF THAT"