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[Oddbob]

So to bring it full circle, the spirit of independent gaming (whatever you want to call it) is this.

Instead of looking for a way to make money and then designing a game that will capitalize on it, you look for a good game you can make and then try to make money from it.

Is it more then this? or is it really that simple?

Sounds good to me.

[Arne]

Yeah, I guess it boils down to money in the end.

[Oddbob]

So to bring it full circle, the spirit of independent gaming (whatever you want to call it) is this.

Instead of looking for a way to make money and then designing a game that will capitalize on it, you look for a good game you can make and then try to make money from it.

Is it more then this? or is it really that simple?

Sounds good to me.

Gonna be a twat and quote myself here rather than edit the post, but I think you can also safely say the money part is optional - hence the thriving freeware scene.

But if we're talking product, then aye, nail on head.

[Alec]

I don't agree entirely. I think if someone released a free game that was just a shameless rip off of another, it wouldn't make sense to say it has the "independent spirit". I think a certain amount of creativity is expected in addition to not letting financial concerns influence decisions too much.

[Dan MacDonald]

I agree, there should be a certain passion for the creation itself. Though you might say that the fact that they creator didn't take the money first route is evidence enough that they saw some value in the game beyond its commercial value. 

[Alec]

there should be a certain passion for the creation itself.

Shouldn't the act of creating the game be the most passionate part of the process? I'm not saying its wrong/bad to be passionate about marketing. But presumably part of the "spirit" is:
 a. love playing games
 b. love making games

 I'm talking like, dirty dirty lovin'.

 Without that, aren't you missing a major (or... THE?) reason for being independent?

[BMcC]

I'm talking like, dirty dirty lovin'.

Without that, aren't you missing a major (or... THE?) reason for being independent?

I thought that was understood.  You know how D-Mac gets down!

[Alec]

You know how D-Mac gets down!

I do! I didn't mean to direct that at D-Mac.

I'm just saying that incredible amounts of hard work, dedication and passion are also part of the picture. Its not just "hey, I made a game for free". Since we're discussing a "spirit" and not just a cold hard definition, I think its fair game.

I mean look at someone like Pixel and Cave Story, the amount of time and incredible dedication to the project that it took him to get it finished right and completely on his own. If you compare that to how some Match3s are created... there's a disparity there. Its not just the money, its also the passion.

[BMcC]

It's not just the money, it's also the passion.

Definitely.  To me, that's always the most glaring difference between a "true" indie game and otherwise.  Regardless of execution, games that exemplify the indie spirit scream a love for videogames.  The others... they usually make me wonder if the creators just fell into jobs in game development or what.

[Oddbob]

I can never quite understand how you can make a game without investing yourself in it anyway. Not throwing yourself into the game you're creating seems so unutterably alien to me.

Sure, what you're making may not work, it may get fucked up at some point and seriously lose the plot, but at least its something you can say "I did that, and I put my heart and soul into it and I can learn for the next time I make a game from the mistakes". Whereas number watching, its just a case of "oh well, the market didn't like that - what can I add to sell the fucker next time"... which is just squirmy ick.

The idea of watching whats currently turning the numbers, be it on a portal, in the stores or on XBLA - whatever and then thinking "right, thats what I need to be doing"... its just, I dunno - its just wrong and I couldn't seriously turn round to Mrs Bob and be proud of myself if I did that. I'd be fucking ashamed.

I'd sooner a broken but passion filled game than a dead husk of soulless market forced blandness that just ticks all the trend boxes.

Not sure what my point was going to be now, but hey ho - it is gone 4am here

*edited for clarity-ish*

[Prospero]

As mostly a one-man hobby-coding band, I accept within myself that none of my projects are likely to be of commercial or even wide mainstream interest, so to that end I am entirely uninterested in current market trends

The primary factor I use for choosing a project to work on is: can I realistically complete it yet also challenge myself a little in the process? Then, after that, I will try to pick something that hasn't been done to death already. (And to pre-empt something here: I know Poing is "just another" breakout clone, but the gameplay principle it has is not something any other PC bat 'n' ball game uses, to my knowledge.)

Although it's tempting to just hammer out yet another match-3 game (the good Doctor Derek loves them really, I know he does! ), there's bugger all that I'd learn from doing so. Except possibly how to jump on a casual gaming bandwagon.

Whether the game will ultimately be of any interest to others isn't a big consideration. What does matter to me is that anyone who does end up playing one of my games enjoys doing so, or at the least, doesn't think it's a steaming pile of crap; if I get just one complimentary e-mail or forum comment then it's all worthwhile.

All of those points together sort of sum up what my own "Indie spirit" is. And after a bad experience in my early days, money is certainly not a part of it.

... I think if someone released a free game that was just a shameless rip off of another, it wouldn't make sense to say it has the "independent spirit".

Yes. Obviously there's not a great deal of point in remaking a game using all ripped graphics (and sounds, to a lesser degree); why not use an emulator? But you could still use the argument that some people can't be bothered using emulators and they just want a game which works natively on their OS.

I'd sooner a broken but passion filled game than a dead husk of soulless market forced blandness that just ticks all the trend boxes.

Someone give this man a medal. I couldn't agree more

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

As mostly a one-man hobby-coding band, I accept within myself that none of my projects are likely to be of commercial or even wide mainstream interest, so to that end I am entirely uninterested in current market trends

Well, I'm also a one-man hobby-coding band, yet I tie my future with Game-Development. And unwilling to go the "codemonkey-for-hire" route, I'm trying to get into the market the "hard way". Chances? Slim. Yet I won't give up no matter what.

The primary factor I use for choosing a project to work on is: can I realistically complete it yet also challenge myself a little in the process? Then, after that, I will try to pick something that hasn't been done to death already.

In my case it's going each time a step further. I'm challenging myself to see how much I can do on my own. Yet I also try to venture as far sa possible into the realm of things not yet done at all...

Although it's tempting to just hammer out yet another match-3 game (the good Doctor Derek loves them really, I know he does! ), there's bugger all that I'd learn from doing so. Except possibly how to jump on a casual gaming bandwagon.

I see no point in doing "another" beat-to-death game unless I have a truly novel idea for it. It *DID* have sense as long as I didn't have the required skills, but such attempts I never shown to the public.

Whether the game will ultimately be of any interest to others isn't a big consideration. What does matter to me is that anyone who does end up playing one of my games enjoys doing so, or at the least, doesn't think it's a steaming pile of crap; if I get just one complimentary e-mail or forum comment then it's all worthwhile.

It would be untrue if I said that I don't care wether anyone will play and like my game. But my approach is realy non-commercial. I'd rather do a game that a few people will say "It's *THE* game evah!" about it, and the rest will say it's crap, then do a game that everyone will say "It's nice".

Yes. Obviously there's not a great deal of point in remaking a game using all ripped graphics (and sounds, to a lesser degree); why not use an emulator? But you could still use the argument that some people can't be bothered using emulators and they just want a game which works natively on their OS.

There *IS* a point of doing remakes with ripped graphics/sound if you're going to put something novel to it, or doing it completely in a novel way . My most successful project yet is a rippoff of a popular game, and a UNmake at the same time ^_^.

[moi]

(And to pre-empt something here: I know Poing is "just another" breakout clone, but the gameplay principle it has is not something any other PC bat 'n' ball game uses, to my knowledge.)

Hey Poing for the Amiga was one of my favorite games, if this one keeps the same gameplay it will be a good thing.

[Bezzy]

Hi! I'm new here, but I'd just like to say that I've been working on my game for 8 months. Today I earned my first bit of income for that entire period!

40 quid!

I bet you're thinking "wow, so, working on that game finally paid off, huh?" but no! It was for helping someone move furniture.

If you are doing indie games for the money, you are quite, quite stupid.

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

If you are doing indie games for the money, you are quite, quite stupid.

Tell that to the guys at Introversion ;].

[Bezzy]

If you are doing indie games for the money, you are quite, quite stupid.

Tell that to the guys at Introversion ;].

Hey, don't get me wrong. I've got nothing against people earning the money they need to get by and make the games they want to make. It's when money becomes the end, rather than the means that, erm... I'm less cool with. Even though, you know, if it results in good games... erm... who cares what motivates it?

Me, for instance, I'm doing it solely to get revenge against CliffyB for laughing at me when I said I wanted to be a game designer. I'll show that smug bastard.

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

If you are doing indie games for the money, you are quite, quite stupid.

Tell that to the guys at Introversion ;].

Hey, don't get me wrong. I've got nothing against people earning the money they need to get by and make the games they want to make. It's when money becomes the end, rather than the means that, erm...

Okay, I can agree with that. At least for me it's like -- If I ever wake up, and decide that making games is for me mostly about the money, then I will quit making games altogether and search for another hobby.

[Bezzy]

If you are doing indie games for the money, you are quite, quite stupid.

Tell that to the guys at Introversion ;].

Hey, don't get me wrong. I've got nothing against people earning the money they need to get by and make the games they want to make. It's when money becomes the end, rather than the means that, erm...

Okay, I can agree with that. At least for me it's like -- If I ever wake up, and decide that making games is for me mostly about the money, then I will quit making games altogether and search for another hobby.

Oh crap! Don't do that on my account man. It takes all sorts, right? I mean, there comes a point in anyone's life where you start to wonder if your convictions were as strong as they once were, but you look at where it's gotten you, and you've no choice but to carry on - there's a weight of momentum there. Just look at Molyneux. Or maybe you turn into Peter from OfficeSpace, and just start working on a building site or something, but it really enriches your soul. Or... summat.

Shit, I'm sorry I said anything now.

_{Why did I think I would fit in here?}

[Dan MacDonald]

Me, for instance, I'm doing it solely to get revenge against CliffyB for laughing at me when I said I wanted to be a game designer. I'll show that smug bastard.

You show'em tiger!

Getting laughed at is a great motivator.

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Okay, I can agree with that. At least for me it's like -- If I ever wake up, and decide that making games is for me mostly about the money, then I will quit making games altogether and search for another hobby.

Oh crap! Don't do that on my account man. It takes all sorts, right? I mean, there comes a point in anyone's life where you start to wonder if your convictions were as strong as they once were, but you look at where it's gotten you, and you've no choice but to carry on - there's a weight of momentum there. Just look at Molyneux. Or maybe you turn into Peter from OfficeSpace, and just start working on a building site or something, but it really enriches your soul. Or... summat.

Shit, I'm sorry I said anything now.

Oh, don't worry. People agree upon that I'm out of my mind* anyway xD. I did a textmode Doom that actually got popular so how could I be sane? ^_^

* How could I *not* be out of my mind? It's dark and scary there!!