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September 24, 2021, 04:22:39 PM

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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGeneralThe Potato Hierarchy
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Joseph TP Corcelli
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« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2021, 02:25:40 AM »

If I saw Satsuki give that speech three days ago at this point I'd offer to clean her face and give her a deep tissue massage. When she gets into her reverse bunny mode to fight me at that offer, as she most likely will, I may even have to touch her with my hands to play rough.

Actually the first outlet I heard about Kill la Kill on was talking about how great the empowered female figures were. So I have to work around thinking about that before I acknowledge any of this is cute.
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2021, 09:07:51 AM »





So there is a good futurama where they invent a new kind of robot that is much better than the old ones and bender has an emotional aversion to the new machine. So he must get an upgrade. As you can see from roberto the upgrade seems like a horrible brain reprogramming. But the episode explores bender escaping and going on an adventure where he very organically comes to the conclusion that the new robots are just tools to help him do things. Then he wakes up and realizes IT WAS ALL A DREAM. Typically hacky writing but used very effectively in this episode.

I think tool is a good word, computers are very much tools: they do what they are told slavishly and without question even when there are obvious better ways. When bender orders the new robot to "save my friends" he has to remember to say "and zoidberg" because the new machine doesn't have any kind of leaps of faith to fill in the blanks of what is being communicated.

When my computer seems to have some magical bugs that have a will of their own, I get VERY angry and look very carefully for what is going on. Sadly a lot of the operation of my machine I cannot actually see the code for. For example: my windows picture viewer seemed to stop showing pictures randomly. Now I could start to read into this, am I supposed to mellow out if scooby doo's picture is shown and satuski's picture is hidden? Is the computer trying to communicate?!?!? After checking on forums, this was a "known bug" and I installed a new picture viewer that works correctly as a tool.

Also about Satuski, she is sort of one of the archetypal "GIRLLBOSSES" and some women find that kind of thing offensive and not empowering: the idea that women are just there to boss men around and look good is not something all women see as a utopia. Different strokes for different folks. So on and so forth and scooby doobie doo.
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Joseph TP Corcelli
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« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2021, 07:43:03 PM »

I'm not sure from that response. Do you have some kind of bond to Satuski, so I shouldn't deliberately play out this fantasy I loosely described? Or is there some other reason you might have brought her up?

Contrary. If I wrote more stuff where people can fill in the blanks would that be helpful? The very short fantasy I wrote has easily more than (2x2x5x2x3x3 =) 360 different combinations of how you'd interpret each part of the sentence.  Detail would cause the possibilities to collapse like quantum states, if it's open they're only limited to whatever other creative tools artists can manage if you know what I mean. Even if it does potentially introduce ideas someone hadn't thought of, this might be better than knowing what you're missing.
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2021, 08:12:54 PM »

I generally like bossy women, though Satuski is a cartoon character so I don't have much of a bond with her. Lol, I don't care if you have fantasies about her.

Not sure how the permutations work there, conversation is just conversation? I don't really understand your 360 computation and would love to hear you elaborate on it. To me, even for one sentence there are more than 360 different combinations of how someone would interpret it. That's the fun of natural language: it has ambiguities. One could say ambiguity is humanity's birthright.

One of my favorite little bits about language is that once it becomes formal and rigorous, all true things cannot be proven. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorems So again as we've discussed the humanity vs the computer, the potato vs the pyramid, once you tighten everything into a formal locked in structure, there are real consequences of what can be said.

I like to keep it loose, and just generally don't want to have to wear a suit and tie and all that, even though some people think that looks great. My art is pretty informal too, I just make whatever comes to mind. Sadly as I've gotten more skilled at making art, I've also lost a bit of the freedom to do whatever I want without thinking.



I called that one "Dr Zombie Dog Clown Apocalypse(TM)"

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Joseph TP Corcelli
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« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2021, 05:02:20 AM »

I wrote down stuff. But due to my better judgement I'm going to file it away.

I fully intend to lick her face all over, that's what I really want. I'm not concerned with going up in the hierarchy, although if she were part of a bunny hierarchy then that'd put me directly under her, which is almost as good as a consensual relation can get from my experience.



Here's some good sauce. The first one's close to what I wrote down. The only artist that does licking frequently has her in a cat costume.

333119, 114512, 114004, 171461

I might actually watch the anime all the way through some day.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2021, 03:39:18 PM by Pfotegeist » Logged

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michaelplzno
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« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2021, 07:06:26 PM »

I'm not sure I want to play this game:



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Joseph TP Corcelli
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« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2021, 01:39:12 AM »



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michaelplzno
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« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2021, 04:40:36 AM »

You ever have one of those dreams where you are trying to wake up and you keep thinking you woke up and you get a few steps out of your bed and you realize your room is different and you are still dreaming so you try to wake up again and this same thing happens a whole bunch of times over and over?



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Joseph TP Corcelli
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« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2021, 05:07:55 AM »

From the cat video

comment by Tayler Downing
4 months ago
"all 6.7 million of us watched this because we secretly want this in our lives"


I can't really confirm the specifics but I believe I've had a dream about almost any generic action I'd take in real life in my room. Getting out of bed, walking too the door, trying to go to sleep in the dark. And they'll repeat.

My dream state usually picks one mood and forces me to experience it so if I'm supposed to feel groggy, I'll be groggy until the dream's over. If there's a sense of danger or urgency in a dream, it doesn't end and the scenario usually adapts to make sure my mood somehow fits in, rather than the other way around.

...

I think if the hierarchy were defined better I might be able to explain why someone at the top wouldn't want to keep working hard. Like, if the hierarchy is goal based in some way, when you reach the goal, that's early retirement for someone who only wanted to see how it felt. People who retire at the top stay at the top right? Like a boxing champion.'

So an analogy would be the boxing champion should consider coaching or announcing, rather than becoming a tae bo instructor?
« Last Edit: September 01, 2021, 05:43:21 AM by Pfotegeist » Logged

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michaelplzno
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« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2021, 08:37:12 AM »

Ah!

I get what you are saying now: if we have a non pyramid hierarchy, what motivates people to keep on going?

Right, well I work fairly hard despite having no means to get any kind of rank in any hierarchies. My tweets get 10 likes on a real slammer, my games barely are noticed, and just generally my numbers are terrible in the objective sense.

I like the idea that the potato sort of weeds out those who just want to be "on top" as opposed to those who "love what they do" The basics of the potato thesis is that it shouldn't be top vs bottom but more of a collaboration between those who are new and those who are established.

When I make games, I often hope that they will become successful, but mostly I make them for the fun of it. I admit, I wouldn't polish the tutorials and so on as well as I do without the goal of ranking up and external sales motivation, so yes, I wouldn't make as good stuff if I didn't have some external prodding, but even still:

When someone is accepted into the upper tiers of the old pyramid hierarchy, won't they also stop working? I mean, lots of indies just stop after they get one big hit, like phil fish, he was super grumpy about his relationship with the game world and he just stopped working on stuff after he had one big giant game. The fact is, that had he worked on doing more games he would have improved as a designer, he had an opportunity to become a true master designer and he instead just decided to not be known publicly anymore. Maybe he is launching games under a different name, but there was someone by the name of Phil in the tig discord who said "I'm Phil Fish and that's my name, why shouldn't I be able to use it?"

Same thing with Notch: he has the power to make a ton of projects and so on, tip of the ol pyramid, but he instead does right wing shitposts. Now is he launching games under a double secret pseudonym? Who knows? I mean if you really want to get nutty, it seems like a lot of celebs just sort of vanish after they get enough of the gold associated with being at the top. Are they on some kind of celeb island? Another dimension? Outside of the matrix?

I would think the potato would be easier to motivate people because it is more organic, that is, if you stop producing, its much easier for the next wave to come in and take over, which is as it should be. The rigid stone enshrined big bois shouldn't be able to keep their status if they just sit on their rumps.

Edit: In the old days of Greece, they gave the winners of the olympics the olive wreath, also known as kotinos which is a crown of leaves deliberately designed to fade away over time to make the point that you would have to go win again if you want to be a real winner.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2021, 08:43:41 AM by michaelplzno » Logged

Joseph TP Corcelli
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« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2021, 12:57:45 PM »

I don't think about what the people at the top are doing. I just hope they're ok. I actually have been looking at what people in other fields are doing for ideas though.

https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/knowledge/other/social-mobility/
Quote
What is vertical social mobility?
Vertical mobility

This refers to a change in the occupational, political, or religious status of a person that causes a change in their societal position. An individual moves from one social stratum to another. Vertical mobility can be ascending or descending.

I think the indie space has a great deal of social mobility. I said something a while ago, related to this. I thought I'd heard of something called a symmetrical hierarchy, it could be my imagination. Like, a vertical symmetry is when the top brass and the new recruits share ideas. A horizontal symmetry is, umm, I'm not sure, maybe it would allow for a broader work experience, like you're offered to do something different before it goes to the experts?

The indie space isn't a company, so if that is what you want to happen, it would definitely need to be organic and without even marginal manipulation it's difficult to encourage it to happen.
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2021, 01:54:53 PM »

I get the horizontal/vertical split they have here, I'm not sure how symmetry would impact this. Part of my potato is that it is *not* symmetrical, that would be that the bottom and top are exceptional projects, either very good or very bad, but its not based on the idea that the top or bottom of the potato are higher status. That is in the potato, a game from the bottom or top of the potato may in fact be a hit.

Here is what I have so far:



The Z axis is a little undefined right now but I'm thinking that the most successful games are at zero Z, meaning if you make an exceptionally good or bad game you are likely going to be successful, but really the meaty center is where the most success lies.

"Spammers" won't have any connections across the distance horizontally or vertically, like little bad spots. Its still a bit out there I admit, but that's sort of where I am with the concept.
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Joseph TP Corcelli
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« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2021, 03:51:37 PM »

That really doesn't look like it'd work in any way.

The symmetry idea is sound if a company applies it. Grade A experts will take notice of strange innovative ideas if they're working for the same company, it's easier for them to get fair payment without extra legal procedures.

The horizontal idea is like if someone needs a strange idea to solve a problem, everyone has a chance to hear about it, and an expert tends to admit they can brute force a solution, but they won't enjoy that so much.

Oh. The axis of symmetry is a bit confusing. If this were a geometric symmetry I have them swapped. So, uhh, a vertically symmetrical hierarchy like I'm poorly phrasing, is symmetrical through the horizontal axis so your top and bottom levels are equally valued. So, an expert could technically prefer to go to the bottom level, and provide ideas while someone else works, but this is key, they would get a fair reward, not a perfectly equal one, based on how much value their work is determined to have added to the project, not based on their experience or time with the company. So, I don't know, maybe providing a thousand sheets of hand-made self-portraits is worth too much to be valued properly, compared to a cgi of the same amount, that's a very tricky thing to measure.
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2021, 04:32:35 PM »

eh, I think it could work, but its also sort of a joke.

I do wish people at the top had some kind of reason to reach down, and people at the bottom had a path upwards.

Maybe a potato metaphor isn't the right way to express that.
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Joseph TP Corcelli
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« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2021, 05:16:30 PM »

That's what I figured. The diagram at least, it looked like a bit of messy diagram humor that implies something can't work.
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2021, 05:53:28 PM »

If I come up with a more convincing, less hilarious diagram I'll have to post it.
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Joseph TP Corcelli
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« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2021, 05:33:09 PM »

This is the basic idea of how you'd measure what people get paid fairly in a cooperative work when they are doing a streamlined task. Shares are split based on an element of time. Also if it's a company, the company gets something.

When you introduce tools and machine learning, a creative job would have to be intentionally upgraded to a higher standard, the expected result requiring no less investment of time.

https://youtu.be/MHS-htjGgSY?t=435
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2021, 06:26:51 PM »

I think that's a good formula, the way I would do it is figure out the ratio of what everyone does independently:

So if A can do 10 alone, and B can do 20 alone and together they can do 40, I would say A gets 10/30 the final results and B gets 20/30 meaning A gets 13.33 and B gets 26.66 of the final results. But that's just my intuitive formula.

One problem with indie games is that there is a separation between how good a game is, how long the production time is, and what the results are. So for example, if two people make very similar games in terms of genre and also quality but one of them has access to, lets call them: "pyramid tips," people who are well connected, I suspect that the connected game will sell more copies if it has extra press and tweets and so on brought on by the big shot "pyramid tip" promoting it. In such a scenario, I would imagine that between the two people who made the similar game, there is no reason why the guy who doesn't have access to the connections deserves any lower compensation than the guy who just happens to be friends with some big shot. Right?

I was watching Star Trek Lower Decks today and they have this game about negotiating and the only way you can end the game is if everyone is unhappy, then you can finally submit your proposal for the deal everyone gets.

Edit, Here is a pic of this game from Trek:
« Last Edit: September 07, 2021, 07:04:12 PM by michaelplzno » Logged

sambloom
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« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2021, 11:57:11 PM »

These days I'd say you can't be at the top without interacting with the entire hierarchy anyway. The games require so much quality now, if you're not a avid gamer and testing others' games you won't know what actually makes a good quality game yourself
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Joseph TP Corcelli
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« Reply #39 on: September 09, 2021, 02:33:48 AM »

if the potato diagram were a metaphor for the oblong political spheroid
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