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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGeneralForget the Bread Book: Invest in Teleplates, find out how!
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Schoq
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« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2020, 11:02:49 PM »

The notion that people couldn't possibly figure out a meaningful existence without being told what to do by someone with power over them is absurd and makes me almost feel offended on behalf of my species. No clue where anyone would even get that idea?

And for US politics you're talking about a situation where in the richest major nation on earth, a proposal for a normal, tried-and-true healthcare system that's measurably both cheaper and better, implemented with success long ago in just about every developed nation on earth (and many much less developed ones), is shut down as irresponsibly unrealistic and radical pie in the sky communism for naïve people that don't understand that the country is just doomed to have healthcare outcomes on par with eastern Europe. *Too much* idealism is 100% not the problem in that country.
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2020, 05:36:07 AM »





Why do you think people play games? Do you think its because it makes them free of "being told what to do by someone with power over them?"

Now you might not be much of a gamer, but how free are we when we agree to be bound by a power structure set up by some far away designer?

I have struggled greatly to be independent, a rugged individual, an Übermensch, a rock, an island. It may be "meaningful," but even a great horrific tragedy can be meaningful. Happiness? No, you need other people in your life for that. Or at least I do. Perhaps I'm too weak.

And when we have more than just ourselves, there are situations in which you are the cat and other times you are the mouse. You can have a dance as to who is leading, and you can collaborate, but there are rules, structure, norms, power dynamics. C'est la vie. One cannot simply do whatever one wants unless a number of people are subservient to that will, or unless that person is totally alone. I think even you had a rit of "We live in a society" in this very debate. We can imagine a society where everyone "just agrees" on everything but it would be profoundly boring, and I doubt it would have any meaning at all. It would not be ideal.





On healthcare: sure, I would love a public option and think that would be good. I'm in Massachusetts where healthcare is pretty cheap and reasonable and I know it *can* work so I'm already sold on that issue.

On UBI: It takes more than a tantrum to explain how that complicated system would work. Are we giving UBI to people like Jeff Bezos? Or is it need based? If so then it only goes to people who don't or can't work? That sort of sounds like welfare, which already exists. Now if you are proposing strengthening and improving that system I could go for that. I think even Newt Gingrich, a flaming conservative, campaigned on the idea that welfare should be improved (Though of course he was likely using that as a "euphemism" for how he wants to cut it.)
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Schoq
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« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2020, 10:42:30 AM »

gonna do an obnoxious paragraph by paragraph response for nostalgia

Quote
Why do you think people play games?
Sublimation and just stimulation of all kinds, generally.


I'm not sure what you want to say with the following thing about how we live in a society. Humans are social animals and life without others is no life? well yeah, that's what this whole figuring out optimal social organization is about. No matter what you will have social roles and goals and (unless we achieve fully automated gay space communism) work to do.

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On UBI: It takes more than a tantrum to explain how that complicated system would work. Are we giving UBI to people like Jeff Bezos? Or is it need based?
Yes. No. The entire point of UBI (and what the U denotes) is that it's not means-tested. Otherwise we're indeed just talking about welfare. It's an entire genre of proposed systems, but that much they have in common.
You call it complicated, but what's proposed is decidedly less complicated than the current massive bureaucracy around redistribution of private liquid capital.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2020, 06:56:35 PM by Schoq » Logged

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omnilith
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« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2020, 03:49:14 PM »

Just speaking personally here, but if I no longer needed to work in order to have food or live in an apartment, I wouldn't simply sit around doing nothing all day. People are passionate about things, and people will still want to create art and help their communities. If anything, taking away the pressure to constantly scrape together enough money to survive would be a massive boon to the world of art; any artist could tell you that nothing hampers the creative process more than constant stress and panic.
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2020, 04:51:01 PM »

I guess I'm just grumpy that I think there is a good chance a big orange turd is gonna win the election.

What we are circling around, or at least I am circling around, is the concept of an assimilation plot: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AssimilationPlot Which I think you describe as "fully automated gay space communism" quite well. This debate is the eternal struggle between the Farengi and the Borg. I think both extremes are flawed.

I'll think more about it, thanks for the thread.
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Schoq
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« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2020, 08:10:59 PM »

fully automated gay space communism is lefty memespeak for star trek-style post-scarcity, post-necessary labour (top-tier unattainable but worthwhile goal). that's where your worries about an aimless alienated life would be relevant if ever.

the book contains plenty of critique of systems that impose a certain way of life. envisioning for example that most people would eat at at communal kitchens (restaurants without the paywall) simply because it's prepared in less time thanks to specialization and scale economy, but with nothing to stop someone from cooking their own damn food at home if they feel like it's a worthwhile use of time. Similarly with the need for living spaces adapted to families and loners alike, because we all have different needs and inclinations at different points in life (forced isolation and depriving someone of the possibility of isolation are both forms of torture).
the idea is a new system that will make the current one seem as unattractive as feudalism does today, without any need to forcefully assimilate people into accepting, eh, not being a serf. once again UBI proponents like to posit this as well, that the only people that would want to go back would be the fraction of people well off enough that they don't notice an increase in economic freedom, and who also somehow don't see living in an overall better functioning and faster progressing society as increasing their own quality of life.
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2020, 08:36:17 AM »

As far as lefty memes go, "YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED, RESISTANCE IS FUTILE" seems to be the shoe that fits. A borg lives in a pod with all their basic needs met, presumably enjoying some kind of virtual sublimation in their regeneration pod. The pods tend to their health, regenerating them, as well as provide food, etc. When work is needed to be done, a computer fairly chooses a drone and takes control of it like a self driving car to clean a toilet etc. and then replaces the drone back into a pod. There is no individuality as even the human mind is shared with everyone else. Also all drones are the same size and color, none of them have more or less than any other, it is truly fair. They even all live in the same kind of pods in big racks. Oh yes, and when borg are confronted with leaving the collective they typically resist in a big way because they feel lonely without being connected to borg mind twitter. Its the ideal!

The actual trekers are a military style hierarchy with promotion and rank and politics and so on as to who gets to be in charge and what orders are followed. Much less evolved or socialist than the borg. Also with new trek they added all kinds of racism and drug addiction and money problems to the federation because they wanted to say something muddled about America or Brexit and didn't care if they tore down the entire lore of the franchise to do it when it would have been just as easy to create a new race of aliens that were an allegory for MERICA.
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Schoq
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« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2020, 08:55:54 AM »

I don't follow star trek but it is my understanding that it went from a radically progressive and optimistic vision of a destiny beyond our suicidal advanced tribal warring where humanity has come together to explore the stars, to the worst kind of backwards sci-fi that goes "heh get it just like our current times but it's in space".

Anyway I guess we'll get back to this discussion once we have warp drives and shit when these considerations are relevant.
Since we're not talking about the real world anymore here's a sympathetic case for borg-style hivemind biology over isolated brains that can't even directly share thoughts or memories: http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/watts_01_10/
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2020, 09:26:53 AM »

I'll read that, but that's part of my original argument re:teleplates, it truly is an ideal form of transportation but it lacks any reality to how it works. So if we want more idealism, which I'm not entirely against, it becomes relevant to talk about what the concept of utopia would be, despite its obvious lack of reality, as per your stance on this.

On star trek, I think your big objection to the borg, who are portrayed as the worst of the bad guys, would be that they forcibly assimilate people into their society.

There is also "The Player Of Games" by Ian M Banks which is meant to be an ideal liberal society (Called THE CULTURE) that is post scarcity. The main character, a true gamester, is a little bit less evolved and takes on an evil empire (Much closer to our real world but still with extra tech.) where your entire rank in the empire, even who is emperor, is decided by how well you play an incredibly complicated and sophisticated board game. https://www.amazon.com/Player-Games-Culture-Iain-Banks/dp/0316005401

I got the audiobook for free, I found it to be a great read.
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Schoq
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« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2020, 10:29:19 AM »

Yo there's a difference between theoretically possible irl and theoretically possible if only we had some specific perhaps impossible technology. The former is idealism and the latter is sci-fi.
Though admittedly an argument for the anarcho-communist utopia is that it should be a smoother transition and arguably more attractive the higher the tech level (fewer working hours a week to provide for all are required each year (but we keep working the same number of hours because markets), and surveillance tech sure as heck isn't making concentrated corporate and state power look nicer the more it progresses.)
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 10:34:44 AM by Schoq » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2020, 11:06:02 AM »

So I am doing a bit of slight of hand with my teleplates, in more ways than one, but anarcho-comunism, (thank you for naming names) is inherently contradictory in its inception. "A stateless state." So it too is an impossible dream, contrary to human nature, and its merits are about as powerful as sci-fi in that the more we believe it the more powerful it is, but in some ways anarcho-communism is less feasible than teleplates. In trek, they had little handheld Tricorders and communicators that are remarkably similar to the modern cell phone. So because a tech may be invented and made real, speculating about teleplates might have more merit than AC and furthermore, advocating for the break down of the current system without fully articulating its replacement is a big red flag.

But I think if you want a meme reply about your ideology: "read this wiki article" might be a bit more persuasive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-communism

But again, I have a growing number of dissents that are directly tied to AC, The easiest one that I can come up with is how would it be possible to enforce DUI laws. None of the AC's that I've argued with have answered that.

Edit: just to fire for effect, we can have a society without any crime at all *theorhetically* but it is entirely possible that teleplates are more realistic than that impossible dream. No?
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Schoq
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« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2020, 11:56:32 AM »

Communism doesn't imply a state unless it's a branch that implies a state.

Cheeky answer keeping with the theme: why would we need DUI laws when all cars are self-driving (alt. some people spend their working hours as designated drivers)

Crime (actual crimes that endanger or hurt others) is a big one in general. Even with my view that atonement is meaningless and prevention is everything (removing incentives to commit crime and adding discouraging factors in that order) antisocial individuals are gonna exist and people who wanna not be hurt by them should be protected. What the heck would an anarchist prison system and police force look like and how would it be better than the best example of state policing? Majority decision can't protect an individual from arbitrary treatment. Do we keep some vestige of state power state just to have a proper justice system? Maybe?

bonus content: damn look at this https://i.imgur.com/19FQ0h6.png
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 01:14:23 PM by Schoq » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2020, 12:46:57 PM »

I'm just a regular style communist/Marxist, but I'm not really peeved if other people want to append this or that label to their flavor of communism. As long as they are committed to truly helping the poor and the homeless and the concomitant process of building a better world for all, I'm fine with leaving the quibbles about what the end state of civilization ought look like for later.
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« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2020, 01:17:29 PM »

what's the fun of communism if we're not stuck in endlessly branching theoretical discussion
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« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2020, 07:27:35 PM »

 the natural human drive to invent and improve things stems from wanting to become a millionaire
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #35 on: July 13, 2020, 12:13:17 AM »

Just don't come after my bodily fluids:



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