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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperTechnical (Moderator: ThemsAllTook)Game Maker 8 Beta
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Alec
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« Reply #60 on: July 19, 2009, 06:00:21 PM »

I am moving on to unity, it is 10 times the price, but I think it has 10 times the potential. i am leaving GM to hobbyist children and students, and continuing my work in a professional environment.

Lots of people I'd consider "professional" (or extremely talented) use Game Maker to create awesome stuff.

In the end, a game is more a product of the creator than the tools.
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Oddbob
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« Reply #61 on: July 19, 2009, 07:03:12 PM »

personally, I am not happy with where GM is going, and I haven't since sandy duncan/yoyogames entered the picture.

Well, to be fair, the YYG business model was an abortion from the off. Relying on ad revenue and potentially attempting to monetise (oh, how I hate that word) "my first game" is a bit crap even if it were just to attempt to bolster the GM funds. So many sites with "we're the YouTube of games" and none of them worked. Who'da thunk it?

But! Sometimes you have to fail at something to realise it's a not going to work and I think YYG have seemingly learnt that lesson the hard way.

Their product is where the strength lies and YYG itself should have come second at all times with shifting GM out the door with bugfixes et al being the priority. 

GM itself is but a few bugfixes and tweaks away from being as sturdy as it comes. Unfortunately, the progress has been so deathly slow and clearly some of the stuff needed to get it to near perfection is beyond Marks ability. To me, that's where YYG were supposed to step in. Why that hasn't happened is probably entirely related to a lot of the above.

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the tone from mark is most likely due to dealing with teenagers and the accompanying attitude. I think he should've finalized GM a long time ago and gone back to teaching. I would not buy a product from someone who spoke to me, the way he is responding to people.

Well, y'know, I've met lots of devs in my time and some of them just aren't fundamentally front facing people when it comes to dealing with bugs and feature requests. I've had blazing arguments with a couple of serious veterans over the years and come to the internet equivalent of fightsies (thankfully in private most of the time!) *but* I don't respect them any less for their work and in a lot of cases, I'll continue to buy and support their work because despite being grumpy mups, they're still brilliant men who make brilliant things.

That's not to say I haven't wanted to repeatedly bang heads against walls at times, but heck, par for the course is that - they probably wanted to bash mine in at the same time. Some people are just best creating things :D

Not sure why you say GM should have been "finalized" though, for a start - what does that mean? A perfectly good product just stopped because you don't like the guys attitude? Stuck in time forever for no good reason? What exactly would "finalizing" entail? Feature locking whilst the rest of the universe continues to move on?

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I am moving on to unity, it is 10 times the price, but I think it has 10 times the potential. i am leaving GM to hobbyist children and students, and continuing my work in a professional environment.

Ooh, get you, Mr Grown Up! Like Paul and a couple of others, I can wing some fucking smart stuff out of GM and I look at some of what people pull out of it and marvel at how utterly brilliant that stuff is. Not "brilliant for GM" but plain "brilliant as brilliant can be". Most of this stuff goes on around folks though and most of the time, it never even gets a sniff near the GMC and the likes - after all, why should it?

Right tool for the right job though and if you want fast 3d dev, well, Unity is it - not GM. For 2d stuff, I've got nearly all I'll ever need in GM currently (well, will have once 8 is out of beta and stable). Gimme a Mac version and that's it, sorted for the near future.

Phew, got through that paragraph without saying AND FUCKING SHADERS. I'm getting there! *twitch*

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I do hope that many young people and those new to game design learn a lot from GM, I did.

Aww thanks! So do I. But there's nothing stopping them creating brilliant and professional pieces of work in GM as it is now.
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Kadoba
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« Reply #62 on: July 19, 2009, 07:51:44 PM »

Game Maker is an amazing prototyping tool. You can throw together things so ridiculously fast with its framework. I can't ever imagine leaving it behind completely.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #63 on: July 19, 2009, 07:53:57 PM »

i agree w/ oddbob above on all points -- calling people like cactus and derek yu children hobbyists or students is kind of misplaced. i'd say that easily half of all good indie games are made in the GM engine. without GM and tools similar to it like MMF, the indie game community probably would not exist
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mcc
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« Reply #64 on: July 19, 2009, 08:34:43 PM »

So I may be about to say something stupid but...

Game Maker is an amazing prototyping tool. You can throw together things so ridiculously fast with its framework. I can't ever imagine leaving it behind completely.
I'd be happier if there existed some rapid prototyping tools that "scaled" better such that the things created with the rapid prototyping tools (art resources, levels, game logic etc) could be directly used in a project done in a lower level language. I guess there's some surprising things being done with gamemaker plug-ins? But it seems like there's still sort of a bound on where a project in GameMaker can go (the platform restriction is a big one). It would be nice if you could start a game in GameMaker and "graduate" it to having the bulk of it written in C++/XNA/whatever once it's prototyped. Or make a game which starts off being C++/XNA/whatever, and offload just the level editor duties onto GameMaker. It doesn't sound like these are ways it's really realistic to use GameMaker right now.

I heard a rumor at one point that the GameMaker people were working on allowing GameMaker to output Flash files rather than windows exes. Is this true?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 08:41:41 PM by mcc » Logged

My projects:<br />Games: Jumpman Retro-futuristic platforming iJumpman iPhone version Drumcircle PC+smartphone music toy<br />More: RUN HELLO
Kadoba
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« Reply #65 on: July 19, 2009, 10:24:35 PM »

Yeah that's GameMaker's big downfall - incompatibility. You can't directly use anything you create in GM outside of it.

The plug-in feature is pretty weak. I don't think there's any API exposed externally and called dlls can only interface using strings or integer values (yeah...)

What I meant by prototyping is getting something working up fast. You can test gameplay mechanics and algorithms and such. And prototyping is just one use. You can actually make some solid games on it and even some applications. Its biggest downfalls being compatibility and performance speed, which I think much faster compared to other game making applications such as RPGmaker and MMF.

I heard a rumor at one point that the GameMaker people were working on allowing GameMaker to output Flash files rather than windows exes. Is this true?

No. I really doubt this.
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mcc
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« Reply #66 on: July 19, 2009, 11:18:30 PM »

What I meant by prototyping is getting something working up fast. You can test gameplay mechanics and algorithms and such.
Right, I understood, and you're totally right. I was just thinking, if you look at rapid prototyping tools for domains other than games, like databases or GUIs, you'll often find that those rapid prototyping tools (not always, but very often) allow you to take your rapid prototype and use it as the basis for something non-prototype-y-- like, allowing pieces of your prototype to be driven by or drive code in some other language, allowing you to reuse your "algorithms and mechanics" (or local equivalent) wholesale without actually having to re-implement.

(And I'm not disputing that Game Maker is good enough for quite a lot of games such that it would be fine to just do the whole project in Game Maker, but definitely also there are some projects where it would be useful to do a rapid prototyping stage in Game Maker but the finished product you'd like to wind up with is simply in some way outside of Game Maker's scope.)

...actually here is a question-- is there any way to use Flash resources and actionscripts in a non-Flash application (optimally something like python or C++)? My limited experience seems to suggest Flash is GameMaker's closest challenger in terms of rapid prototyping for games, and maybe because it is a slightly more open format it might wind up easier to incorporate "pieces" of a Flash rapid-prototype into a non-prototype (ie: preferably not limited by the speed of the Flash interpreter...) game. I at one time did a bunch of experimenting with a neat little language called Haxe that can compile into Flash files / actionscript, and which can import Flash graphics/sound resources after it has done so, but I never really figured out what I was doing...
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Cagey
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« Reply #67 on: July 20, 2009, 04:37:49 AM »

...actually here is a question-- is there any way to use Flash resources and actionscripts in a non-Flash application (optimally something like python or C++)? My limited experience seems to suggest Flash is GameMaker's closest challenger in terms of rapid prototyping for games, and maybe because it is a slightly more open format it might wind up easier to incorporate "pieces" of a Flash rapid-prototype into a non-prototype (ie: preferably not limited by the speed of the Flash interpreter...) game. I at one time did a bunch of experimenting with a neat little language called Haxe that can compile into Flash files / actionscript, and which can import Flash graphics/sound resources after it has done so, but I never really figured out what I was doing...

Check out this post on TouchMyPixel. It's an asteroids-like game written in HaXe that can be compiled to a Flash file and played in a browser, and compiled to an exe through C++ to be hardware accelerated. For those who don't know, HaXe is very similar to actionscript 3.0 (although quite an improvement, IMO) but it can be compiled to Flash, C++, Javascript, PHP and no doubt more platforms in the future.
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Kadoba
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« Reply #68 on: July 20, 2009, 05:27:00 AM »

Oh wow, that is interesting. Open source is the way and the future and the light.  Wizard
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Lord Ash
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« Reply #69 on: August 05, 2009, 06:27:34 PM »

I am moving on to unity, it is 10 times the price, but I think it has 10 times the potential. i am leaving GM to hobbyist children and students, and continuing my work in a professional environment.

Lots of people I'd consider "professional" (or extremely talented) use Game Maker to create awesome stuff.

In the end, a game is more a product of the creator than the tools.

I agree, and please excuse the Professional users of the application from said statement, I was more referring to the 90% of the GMC that I see using the program. The people that make good games with GM are good developers, and I think they would shine regardless of the tool. I guess Im just a bit worn down by what I see in general these days.
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John Nesky
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« Reply #70 on: August 05, 2009, 06:43:59 PM »

Perhaps, the better a tool is, the more people will use it, and thus the lower the average quality will be.
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Lord Ash
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« Reply #71 on: August 05, 2009, 06:54:22 PM »

maybe! Smiley

though popular != better.
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