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[Alec]

Haha, that indiegamer forum thread...

Wow. 

Yeah, isn't it great?  :D

Anyone else planning to post their adult compo entries there? I can't wait to see their reactions.

So supposedly that forum is all about marketing? And one point in the thread was how to market games about rape?

Amazing.

I find it amusing in both that people are "oh so offended" and other people are "here's how you should make a buck off this".

[falsion]

Haha, that indiegamer forum thread...

Wow. 

Yeah, isn't it great?  :D

Anyone else planning to post their adult compo entries there? I can't wait to see their reactions.

So supposedly that forum is all about marketing? And one point in the thread was how to market games about rape?

Amazing.

I find it amusing in both that people are "oh so offended" and other people are "here's how you should make a buck off this".

Uh, that's not what I meant at all. I just found the reaction and sheer stupidity on indiegamer really amusing. On this forum, there was literally no drama about the game at all, but indiegamer literally shat a brick and had an aneurysm over it, even though most of the people in that thread didn't even bother playing it!

They just saw the word rape and just thought OH MY GOD THIS IS HORRIBLE.

I mean if this game offends them,  I'd really love (or actually hate) to see they'd have to say about the rest of the adult compo entries on this forum. Really, the level of maturity between TIGSource and the reactions on indiegamer are just mind boggling, and even downright amusing to some degree.

[Aquin]

Please don't invite them over here to judge the rest of us.  My inbox can't handle the pressure. 

[Nessiah]

I tried it out and noticed there's 2 modes, I don't know if there's a spoiler tag so uh just a warning there's spoilers in this post =w=

I noticed that for the first one rape girl follow after the guy, I think it's pretty smart that you had "Michael" and Eddie and you're following the guy but actually Michael is your consciousness or something? (that or I'm thinking way too much

Then I got to the other mode where I was riding this heli and I can kill people if I want to but I keep dying on the mines (I suck) so yeah...I haven't finished that mode yet but cheers 

[jimmythechang]

The game's stylish, and I'm definitely of the mindset that games can be used to explore mature themes. This game doesn't do that, however. For most people, you come in thinking rape is bad, and you leave feeling exactly the same way. (And like farmergnome said, the game's not an indictment against rape. It's a story about a man's experiences in the war and what they ostensibly lead him to do after.)

The issue with morality in games is that it often has to be blunt out of necessity; any agency of choice offered to the player is pared down to the two most extreme options, because to consider all the shades in between would be prohibitively complicated. That's why we as gamers repeatedly get hit in the face with heavy-handed decisions to "KILL/NOT KILL" various NPCs, along with any other number of bombastic statements about morality. People came for the gameplay, man. Say what you gotta say and move along.

But life is a subtle thing. We are who we are because of the momentous events in our lives, true, but maybe even more importantly we are the small things that shape us. You don't become a rapist simply because of Vietnam. It's every single day after Vietnam, and every single day before, that can turn you into a monster. So to consider such a blunt depiction of rape as "profound" is...laughable at best, when you consider all the degrees of morality involved in life.

If farmergnome wanted to make a thought-provoking game about rape (and to reiterate again, he didn't want to), cactus brought up a lot of genuinely interesting, genuinely REAL ways to do it. A game about consensual sex with a minor for instance - you find her attractive, she promises no one else will find out, and she's only a year from being 18. Is that rape? Or, could you ever find yourself in a position justifying rape, as revenge against an antagonist who's hounded you throughout the course of the game and committed any number of atrocities against you? Killing such a nemesis is to be expected, but what questions would the option of rape raise? 

I'm looking forward to when games walk these muddled lines.

[Aaron P]

After reading all the thread and responses on both sides ( here and Indiegamer, and the interview with Gamerlimit ) i've concluded that the problem made when advertising the game was when you started by saying " This game is about a Rapist. " Most people will interpret this as " This game is about Raping people. " as in that being the main objective. Clearly, anyone who plays the game realizes that this isnt a rape fest, its not the objective, and you are not rewarded by doing so. You should of just stated that the game contains material that may be offensive, including violence and rape. It probably would have un-detered some of the naysayers.

A story is told here and there are different paths to take. Some involve an act of rape in order to occur. This game did exactly what it was supposed to, it told a story of a rapist and did so without sugar coating, which stirred emotions. I myself could hardly watch as Eddie took advantage of his victims, but in the end, I felt nothing against the creator, only against eddie. I think what happened with alot of people with negative reactions is that they play games fully expecting to be attached to the character and story they control ( by instinct, gamers expect this ) So by having the gamer control Eddie, they feel as if their objective is purely to commit the acts available to them, and no sane human being WANTS to be a rapist.

Farmergnome, my hat goes off to you. You have created something that within a very small timeframe delivers a powerful message.

Fuck rapists.

[cactus]

The game's main objective is rape. The game rewards the player for raping by either letting the game progress, or completing the chapter. It's not a rape fest though. Although I don't think I've ever seen two rapes in such a rapid succession before.

But I agree that I might've felt differently if it wasn't for A) The trailer, B) That farmer gnome said that the idea came from the experiences of his ex, C) The tone of some of the positive comments here.

The only thing this game made me realize is that there are lots of normal people who don't consider rape to be a horrible thing. I think I would've preferred not knowing about this, though. I find it a lot more disturbing than the content of the game

[PlayMeTape]

The only thing this game made me realize is that there are lots of normal people who don't consider rape to be a horrible thing. I think I would've preferred not knowing about this, though. I find it a lot more disturbing than the content of the game

Oh please. Nobody said anything to imply that they don't find rape horrible. Stop being such a drama queen . I don't know if you meant me or not but let me tell you that I consider rape horrible. Do you seriously mean to say that if you're not offended by this game then you don't think rape is horrible?

[cactus]

I wasn't referring to you, and I'm not being a drama queen. People here have stated that the game opened their eyes to how horrible rape is. Don't take things to a personal level please

To be honest, you hear about rape and you even hear the word thrown around lightly.  I think a lot of normally moral people simply haven't given it a thought.  To play a game like this and to be horrified by it is a good thing.

Maybe YOU understand the implications of that word.  I certainly don't, as I've never been affected by the action in my own life (through anyone I know.)  It's nice to at least have SOME emotion/moral outrage to connect with the word, now that I've played this game.

To be honest, I was stunned by the trailer and playing the game make me realize how bad and terrify rape can be. I think this is because most of the time I feel like those news on the newspaper are something that is not related to me.

About the r-word: every time I'm playing an online team game, like TF2 or EVE, I get really upset when I hear these young guys saying "Oh you got raped! Pwnd!" or "Damn on that last map we were totally raped!" and using the r-word so casually. When I point it out and ask people to stop using it, people are usually pretty surprised at the thought that rape is a really horrible thing and that word shouldn't be bandied around lightly.

There's a difference between not being a horrible thing and being an acceptable thing. From the comments, I don't get the impression that people were actually thinking that rape was ok. I can see how what I wrote might sound like it, though.

[pgil]

Yeah, I wouldn't say this game rewards you for rape. I found Eddie's first encounter with the girl (in the city) highly disturbing, and actually quit the game. I only continued later on because I knew I was missing a lot of the story.

This game uses the player's completion-obsession to make us do things that we know are bad.

(full disclosure: hell yes, I voted for this game)

[FiaStarta]

Most people will interpret this as " This game is about Raping people. " as in that being the main objective.

But does it even matter?

Let's take an example: "kick the baby" in South Park.
Anyone has a problem with it? Of course not, it's a goddamn cartoon, it's not for real.

Take the same scene, but this time in a gore movie. Same scene, but realistic & dramatic this time. Viewers may be disgusted (that's what gore movies are for), but still no one will have a problem with it, because again, it's not for real.

Take the same scene again, but this time in the news. Same scene, but this time it's for real - reactions WILL be different, because it HAPPENED.

So if you think it's shocking, maybe it's because you don't know how to make the difference between reality & fiction.

You've seen rape in movies in various genres, drama (Irreversible, The Accused), sci-fi (Max Max), comedy (Spielberg & Lucas raping Indiana Jones in South Park), porn (the usual "she doesn't want but eventually she likes it" cliché). And you regularly hear about it in the news. Certainly you can make the difference.

The game's main objective is rape.

9/10 game's objective is killing (thousands of people). & the rest is about destroying stuff

[PlayMeTape]

I'm sorry cactus. You're right I was just offended when I thought you were refering to me. But I can relate to what they're saying. Yes we all now rape is terrible. But I think what most of them meant was that when you yourself haven't in any direct way been affected by it, then it's very hard to relate to it. We see all these horrible news items but we don't know what it feels like, we just know it's horrible. I THINK that's what they meant.

[Hima]

But I think what most of them meant was that when you yourself haven't in any direct way been affected by it, then it's very hard to relate to it. We see all these horrible news items but we don't know what it feels like, we just know it's horrible. I THINK that's what they meant.

That's exactly what I meant. Thank you.

[Alec]

But I think what most of them meant was that when you yourself haven't in any direct way been affected by it, then it's very hard to relate to it. We see all these horrible news items but we don't know what it feels like, we just know it's horrible. I THINK that's what they meant.

That's exactly what I meant. Thank you.

One of the things games have the potential to do is to help people experience things "first-hand" (at least in a representative way) that they wouldn't be likely to experience in their lifetime.

So what about a game where you played as a rape victim?

[cactus]

So what about a game where you played as a rape victim?

Seems like a better subject if you ask me

Also, after reading this I can firmly state that I am pro censorship (although only in rare cases). I don't see why anyone would want to defend a game like that, and I don't know whether to laugh or cry when people compare a game like RapeLay to A Clockwork Orange just because they share a common element.

Where I live, porn with violence in it is illegal, and I think that's a good thing.

Rape disgusts me. Rape games disgust me. But they have a right to be here, and I'll defend that right.

Why on earth would anyone defend the rights of something that disgusts them? What purpose or value do those games have that makes them worth defending?

[Alec]

I think its theoretically possible to make a meaningful game/experience that contains some "disgusting" themes like rape. I think that's why some people defend any game with the subject in it, no matter how repulsive... because they're worried that a "more legitimate" work would suffer the same censorship?

Its dangerous territory to wade into. It would be a bad idea to say "something should be censored because it offends -me-". Some people (e.g. hardcore conservatives) have really stupid tastes, and I don't want to be held to them.

But I guess you're making the case that "rape games" are exceptions to that - like saying that any person who would get enjoyment out of that experience must be fucked up beyond redemption?

[cactus]

I think its theoretically possible to make a meaningful game/experience that contains some "disgusting" themes like rape.

I think games should be allowed to contain rape, but I don't think exploitive games focused on letting the player commit rapes should be allowed. While I didn't enjoy Edmund, I don't really think it should be banned, it's not exploitive enough, but I wouldn't defend it if someone opted for banning it.

Something meaningful that contains disgusting material is one thing, but RapeLay is rape porn. As far as I know, porn is pretty much considered a separate entity from normal productions in all medias.

[Alec]

Something meaningful that contains disgusting material is one thing, but RapeLay is rape porn. As far as I know, porn is pretty much considered a separate entity from normal productions in all medias.

For sure, I think that makes sense in the case of a game like that.

I still think its dangerous to try to control people's thoughts, though. People think disgusting things sometimes, and it doesn't necessarily mean that they will hurt anyone because of it.

I mean, a number of people think gay sex is "disguting". I think gay people should still have the right to have sex with each other, despite that some folks are offended. My point isn't to say that gay sex is the same as rape, but that its dangerous to ban things just because a certain group of people find it disgusting. Those people may not be right. In this case, its a lot more clear cut obviously.

If anything, a game like Edmund opens a discussion like this where more is learned about the subject. Bringing these things into the public in many different ways is a good way to raise awareness. I know a lot of people already know that rape is a terrible thing, but I don't see how more discussion about it can hurt.

[increpare]

Where I live, porn with violence in it is illegal, and I think that's a good thing.

Violence inclusive of that which might be present in conventional S&M?

Why on earth would anyone defend the rights of something that disgusts them?

I'll second what alec said in response to this.

And, at another level, disgust is something I appreciate when i get it from a work.  Edmund didn't make me experience any; I doubt, owing to my psychological configuration, that RapeLay (as distinct from rape) would either.  I don't think I've played any games that've revolted/disturbed me to any significant degree.  I would love to: it would raise my spirits.

While I didn't enjoy Edmund, I don't really think it should be banned, it's not exploitive enough, but I wouldn't defend it if someone opted for banning it.

I don't value Edmund too much.  It doesn't fall into any extreme categories (though I'd imagine I'd be more lenient than you here also).  If, nonsensical though the though is, it was to be banned where I live, I would bloody well be angry, though.  Bloody fucking awful angry.

more realistically: if the Edmund thread was removed by the mods here, say, and they couldn't be reasoned out of it, I would leave without a second thought (and not come back), and suggest others do too.  Thankfully this is a relatively tolerant place, so

[FiaStarta]

Why on earth would anyone defend the rights of something that disgusts them?

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"