next »

[Anthony Flack]

As soon as things started turning "controversial", I got my girlfriend on board. She actually thought the rape was kind of funny, but that's probably an atypical response - I guess it was the contrast between the act and the way it was depicted. She also laughed when the character first trod down the long grass; I guess it's because these were two quite novel moments within the game, where something slightly unexpected happens.

Anyway she has gotten quite angry at all the moral outrage, which she thinks is ridiculous, but sufficiently interested to ask other friends of hers what they think. Responses have been pretty much the same mix as everywhere else.

Although personally, I find the whole "Unless you are X, you will never understand Y" to be a quite cheap and potentially offensive argument wherever it appears. And it's not true, anyway. We all understand, and misunderstand, each other to some degree. We are all quite similar, and yet all different. Everyone's experiences are unique, but not completely so.

It's a fantastic art project; i'm just a little miffed because I spent a lot of time worrying about variety and balance that I could've spent designing a brief but shocking way to provoke controversial discussion.

Don't feel bad, because SCB is rad - funny and sexy and stylish and polished and unique. Your efforts have not gone unnoticed. And for what it's worth I think SCB is the more impressive entry. Not that this is a competition or anything. Oh wait...

[John Nesky]

Although personally, I find the whole "Unless you are X, you will never understand Y" to be a quite cheap and potentially offensive argument wherever it appears.

In case it's unclear, I'd like to clarify that I didn't mean that. Individuals can certainly have widely varying experiences and understandings. But when the rape statistics are so clearly unbalanced, it is important to acknowledge the trend.

[Farmergnome]

Edmund is using the game format as a vehicle and nothing more; it's only barely different than a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure book. The subtextual baggage it drags along with its subject matter, along with the visceral/repellant sound (juxtaposed with the cartoony graphics), combine to make the experience far more immersive than it really ought, even if the only point of the thing is to make you feel disgusted that you played it.

It's a fantastic art project; i'm just a little miffed because I spent a lot of time worrying about variety and balance that I could've spent designing a brief but shocking way to provoke controversial discussion. This is what you get when you live inside the box, I suppose.

What Anthony said, but why does every game have to be about mechanics?  I mean mechanics are cool.. no doubt, but does it make my entry less legitimate because it doesn't focus on gameplay mechanics?

Surely there must be room for both, otherwise we aren't really stretching ourselves as game makers? I understand the word "game" throws allot of people out, the expect Mario, not something else entirely.

EDIT: That came off really blunt, I'm not claiming anything here, Id just like to hear what other people think.

[PlayMeTape]

Yeah, sure I'm talking about being raped by another man. Or, to be explicit, raped (sexually assaulted) with objects. I do think you're misjudging what that would be like. I'm not saying I know, but when I think about it my stomach turns. A couple of years ago there was a boy who went to my old school who was raped by an older boy, and I think that was an experience as terrible to him as most rapes are to women. So I don't think there is some barrier preventing men from understanding what it's like.

Edit: this is in reply to John Nesky.

[Lurk]

Christoffer:

Are you saying you wouldn't react to it? I'm sorry but it had to be said. You did the same thing to me.

I'm not saying that, I'm only curious about the kind of reactions it would get, not necessarily from you. I'm not the best judge of these kind of games though, my own vision of games is a bit narrower than most people here, I admit I prefer arcade type affairs with very little levity, just enjoying a challenge, not an experience. I get my 'adult' thought-provoking material from books, I want to childishly enjoy games.

[John Nesky]

re: Christoffer

1) Do you have any evidence that your intuitive response to somebody else being raped gives you insight into what it is like to be a woman raped by a man? (saying that it felt really bad so it must have been like rape is not good enough)
2) More importantly, how confident are you that enough men share your insight into what it feels like to be a woman raped by a man that it's not important to discuss the subject publicly?

EDIT: Again, I'm not saying individuals are not capable of this sort of understanding. I'm talking about attempting to deal with statistical imbalance. Men are distinctly more likely to commit the crime of rape and I think it's important to try to understand why and do something about it.

EDIT 2:

Yeah, sure I'm talking about being raped by another man... I do think you're misjudging what that would be like.

I never said it wouldn't be bad. Rather, my argument was that men might not extrapolate their perception of homosexual rape to heterosexual rape, because they know that women have a different perception of sex with men than heterosexual men do. Heterosexual men would hate it because they are heterosexual, whereas heterosexual women would hate being raped by a man for more subtle reasons.

[moi]

Can't you guys have an opinion about rape without asking your girlfirends?

[PlayMeTape]

No, but to be fair you don't have any evidence of the opposit. But I see you're point. If your point is that you think it's important discussing this BECAUSE we don't know if there's a difference. But I don't think this will help anyone. Say I agreed with you, what difference would it make.

To your second paragraph. I'm not saying we shouldn't try to educate people in what rape does to people. I'm just saying that I don't think it's important to discuss the difference between mens and womens experiences with rape, as I think there is none. I do however believe not as many men have actively thought about rape and because of that it would be good to see to it that men do (which I by the way think this game does). Why I think men haven't thought about it as much is because men don't feel like it will happen to them (and honestly, it seldomly does).

[Anthony Flack]

my argument was that men might not extrapolate their perception of homosexual rape to heterosexual rape, because they know that women have a different perception of sex with men than heterosexual men do. Heterosexual men would hate it because they are heterosexual, whereas heterosexual women would hate being raped by a man for more subtle reasons.

Damn, since I'm not gay I guess I can only imagine what it's like for a lesbian to be raped...

To which I might add: there are degrees of "consent" as well, it isn't strictly a yes/no thing either. People will often do things, or put up with things, that they're not 100% okay with, or might not completely want to do, but decide to go through with for whatever reason.

And also: it's a mistake to think that even a woman who has been raped understands what it is like for somebody else.

[John Nesky]

Why I think men haven't thought about it as much is because men don't feel like it will happen to them (and honestly, it seldomly does).

So now we have two suggestions for why men are more likely to rape.
1) Mine: because they have trouble putting themselves in the shoes of their victims
2) Yours: because they are less likely to be raped themselves, and thus don't give it as much thought.

Your suggestion is pretty good too. Honestly I don't know how to compare them. Probably both are true to some extent, since these things are never cut-and-dry. But if I knew which of these reasons was causing the most damage, I would better know how to reduce the damage. If your theory is the primary reason, I'd suggest a high school field trip to the local jail to expose them to stories about prison rape. (okay, that was half tongue-in-cheek)

[PlayMeTape]

I think we're pretty much on the same page. We just have a small difference in our approach to the issue. It's just that I think it's important to try not to separate the genders further.

[John Nesky]

...And I think it's important to unite the genders. 

[Anthony Flack]

...forceably, if necessary.

Ahhh, a little bit of light rape humour there.

[Alec]

I remember hearing something about the statistics of rape of men being under-reported - because of societal expectations men are "afraid" of admitting they were taken advantage of. If it happened at a young age, people are probably less likely to admit it. (perhaps because of the shame?) I wish I remember where I heard that...

But in any case, I'm sure violent non-consensual sexual molestation goes both ways. Maybe not as often directed at men, but not always directed at women.

I don't think I could really understand the utter tragedy of rape unless it happened to someone close to me - but I can imagine it happening to my sister or my girlfriend and that's fucking terrible. I think I can relate to a lot of the negative feelings that people have when the subject is brought up. I'm fairly capable of putting myself in other people's shoes for a time.

One of the reason I like games is because its a more defined way of stepping into someone else's shoes. I would love to see more games where you play as a victim (instead of some god-like hero on a power trip). What if you played as a farmer who is trying to survive during WW2 instead of the uber-soldier? I would find that interesting.

[Rumrusher]

man to have the experience that puts off a rainbow in a noir film feel.(stands out)
it must be my going beyond morality, and story telling and trying to find a small grit of enjoyment in things. that and life is to short and have played a game where if you beat it  sends you to jail but leaves the camera on to the dang boss who died(WTF no prison levels no fear of shank or  rape, no getting out of jail on parole, no stalking the woman who you risk being imprison.)

[KennEH!]

I remember hearing something about the statistics of rape of men being under-reported - because of societal expectations men are "afraid" of admitting they were taken advantage of. If it happened at a young age, people are probably less likely to admit it. (perhaps because of the shame?) I wish I remember where I heard that...

I can for sure back up what you say. Women are more targeted, but cases have come up where one boy has come forward and all the past victims have come up too afraid to say something.

[Anthony Flack]

Sexual abuse is under-reported in general.

[KennEH!]

Yeah but I mean that even less so for males.

[Rumrusher]

so was the WTF ending was added I couldn't find it?

[erdtirdmans]

It seems silly to post 15 pages after it was first mentioned, but fuck yes to the movie Irreversible (first post after the game info).  That movie is everything I wish this game had been.  It's good enough to bring back up this deep into the thread.