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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperDesignFood For Thought: Perspective
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Suttebun
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« on: December 13, 2020, 11:22:32 AM »

KNOW YOUR AUDIENCE. Words spouted amidst the business world.

Something to remember is how much an avid player of games can immerse and build an understanding of their space.
No longer seeing the geometry, but instead being immersed (and skillful) in a realm of illusion.

This skill will null their feelings towards other things.
Their hearts hardened and expecting Cool  Cry

- - -

You wouldn't approach a GMOD player with a soft set world to walk around in that doesn't excite weird engineers.

Ninja <(But I love that stuff) says the outlier.

They could wind up expecting you to build things that fit their perspective.,
instead of your own heart.

But the thing about game development is that there is a realm of dreams and creativity that is infinite and abundant.
Game design has never been more stagnant, people have forgotten about the rivers of sounds behind the written and thought theories of music. What I mean by that is, it may seem as if humans have already discovered the entire possibility range of games - but they have not. To be honest, they really really haven't.

The functions of shooting, and something exploding may seem like a binding of actions that you can't get around -
but those are universal abstractions that exist within the universe of your creation.
Of which, the physics, biological reactions, and space-time rules do not have to be the same.
You could create your own functioning universe, or non-functioning for dreams sake. (imagination)

The cool of GAME FEEL & GAME JUICE is not the binding of style that all games need to follow.
Indie is just a word, it does not have to be Tigsource cool w/ a hint of Newgrounds and Google.

You as a person have your own heart and experiences to draw from.
Your perspective is worth more than gold.

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michaelplzno
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« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2020, 02:55:23 PM »



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Suttebun
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« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2020, 11:22:45 AM »

Rude?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2020, 11:31:29 AM by Suttebun » Logged
michaelplzno
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« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2020, 03:11:04 AM »

I guess my post was rude, but I cannot make heads or tails of your post, so if you were trying to say something I have no idea what it is. I'm not sure the polite way to express my confusion.
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tia büni
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« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2020, 06:30:29 AM »

I was more than just a little lost by reading your post.  Wizard
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Suttebun
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« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2020, 11:15:05 AM »

Noir games development is neither clear cut, nor readily available for you to feast upon.

Put in the work to interpret or walk away, otherwise you're missing all the fun.
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2020, 04:33:11 PM »

"Put the work in or walk away." Well to me work is all there is so in that spirit:

KNOW YOUR AUDIENCE. Words spouted amidst the business world.

This is whats known in literary terms as a red herring. You'll note that we never come back to this idea ever again, despite its extreme over emphasis. A bold opening, as if to say "I'm not even going to take the first move, why don't you play first, you will lose anyway"

Something to remember is how much an avid player of games can immerse and build an understanding of their space.
No longer seeing the geometry, but instead being immersed (and skillful) in a realm of illusion.

Now the actual writing begins, you may have missed it due to the boldest of bold opening remarks designed to almost force you to stop reading right away. Like someone who comes on to you in a bar saying "hey, lets fluid exchange" and then suddenly wants to talk about the fact that the bar is doing 90s trivia night and you are both competitors.

Immersion is a topic related to games of course, to me I barely feel immersed in the actual real world sometimes, it feels surreal and illusory, even abstract to me, but alaz I deal with it as I can.

This skill will null their feelings towards other things.
Their hearts hardened and expecting Cool  Cry

So already I am somewhat distant from whatever point is here, if there is one, unclear,
but I think we are getting to the idea that the emotional state of an environment can affect your general mood. Which is an interesting and real phenomena.





- - -

Now these three hyphens, those are the key. You wouldn't realize the subtlety but structurally there has never been a more significant idea expressed. Now that I've drawn your attention to it, it is obvious what you should see here.

You wouldn't approach a GMOD player with a soft set world to walk around in that doesn't excite weird engineers.

So the thread continues: GMOD is for weird engineers. Its as if different players have different needs and expectations from media. Yes, I do agree, though I'm not sure that GMOD is a den of weirdos, personally I take great pride in being a weirdo. I come from a long line of weirdos, creeps, outliers, and just general ne'er-do-wells. But I  doubt you were thinking of me personally when you wrote this.

Ninja <(But I love that stuff) says the outlier.

So it does seem you have some target of this pointed yet cryptic and disjointed post in mind. One said outlier who likes gmod (An incredibly popular mod for its time.) But skipping to the next bit you seem to discard this person as well:


They could wind up expecting you to build things that fit their perspective.,
instead of your own heart.

And it seems the point emerges: these creeps, weirdos, fiends, they are so entrenched in their own environment, like a piece of old leather, that they just want more leather. Its leather all the way down from here friendo.

But the thing about game development is that there is a realm of dreams and creativity that is infinite and abundant.
Game design has never been more stagnant, people have forgotten about the rivers of sounds behind the written and thought theories of music. What I mean by that is, it may seem as if humans have already discovered the entire possibility range of games - but they have not. To be honest, they really really haven't.

I'm glad you were brave enough to be honest here. Some would find the pressure to admit that every possible game has been conceived of too tempting, but you didn't pull your punch. There *are* games that don't appeal to the weirdo freaky leather wearing gmod lovers of the world.

The functions of shooting, and something exploding may seem like a binding of actions that you can't get around -
but those are universal abstractions that exist within the universe of your creation.
Of which, the physics, biological reactions, and space-time rules do not have to be the same.
You could create your own functioning universe, or non-functioning for dreams sake. (imagination)

Using *my* imagination I would imagine this bit set to a 60s song ala the producers:





Man, like, the whole world could be a dream inside a dream, written on the outside of a coffee mug. YEAH MAN, GROOVY DADDIO. DADA game design, OUTTA SIGHT!


The cool of GAME FEEL & GAME JUICE is not the binding of style that all games need to follow.
Indie is just a word, it does not have to be Tigsource cool w/ a hint of Newgrounds and Google.

Now I wish we had a bit more of a cohesive idea in this part. The false opening, the meditation about the inaccessibility of the world around us, and now this about "Tigsource cool w/ a hint of Newgrounds and Google"

Let me tell you, I have been assured over and over that Tigsource has nothing to do with what is cool anymore. In fact it is that very promise that I even continue with this endeavor, as I have no desire to dictate what is and is not cool nor do I want others to dictate that.

And if I may be so bold, it does seem you are getting to a pretty simple point about stepping outside your assumptions and comfort zone and not bowing to the common trends, which is quite a well tread point, pretty dull at this point considering how far along we are in the heat death of this forum.

You as a person have your own heart and experiences to draw from.
Your perspective is worth more than gold.

I do like your closing, however, it seems, like your opening, to be somewhat of a non sequitur from the rest of the post. Which I suppose may be a subtle play on your part, in that you have bookended the post with somewhat unrelated rhetoric?

Anyway, how did I do?
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Suttebun
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« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2021, 08:52:45 PM »

you use reddit huh
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2021, 05:15:04 PM »

I barely do, I post some art on there.

Edit: I get grumpy when I'm presented with sort of "dada" writing and so I get abrasive, hope I didn't strike a nerve.
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OneSketchyGuy
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« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2021, 08:17:41 PM »

Looks like lots of people are getting butt hurt about your post instead of seeing your point. I think what you're trying to say is clear, and obvious if you're actually looking. Thank you for sharing.
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Suttebun
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« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2021, 04:32:04 PM »

I barely do, I post some art on there.

Edit: I get grumpy when I'm presented with sort of "dada" writing and so I get abrasive, hope I didn't strike a nerve.

reread your comments before you be nice.

@OneSketchyGuy
Thanks, it's a pretty important topic for game design. And a hard one to talk about!
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2021, 05:28:28 AM »

If you want the mean guy: good writing should stand up to critique and a few pointed words. You seemed to want a challenge when you said I should "put in the work, that's part of the fun!" My writing is not popular, nor do I pander to an audience: my mind is not for rent to any god or government.

Of course I agree its good to make the game in your heart and not to pander to a specific audience (gmod weirdo engineers aside). Is that so ineffable? And when I express my own POINT OF VIEW about how said truism should be expressed I'm too rude sadly.

The only game I ever made about shooting didn't have a single enemy in it. I have also made games that were designed for specific audiences from game festivals to trying to get headlines on the gamer blogs to streamers and so on.

From my POINT OF VIEW it seems like your post's philosophy has been crammed down my throat many times, and yet my own POINT OF VIEW doesn't seem to be very valuable to anyone, nor have I found a way to express it that generates any kind of positive response at all. So that makes me frustrated: you may have gotten the brunt of it, and that's where I try to be nice because I have no idea who you are, nor am I making any personal judgements about you or your abilities. For all I know you are Phil Fish.

I'm not even sure where Reddit fits in this conversation: they seem to be gaming the stock market and super proud of it. I don't own a single stock, nor did I even know they were messing with that till it went viral.
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Suttebun
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« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2021, 02:01:10 AM »

Quote
I don't own a single stock

haha what
(`・Д・)ノ=☆ here we go


I read your first post, you were being kindof a jackass.

- - - (each hyphen makes the sound 'bum')

Well let's chat then, I'm interested in your point of view -
but to kind of let you know where I'm at in mind, I'm a pusher of procedural generation.
I've thought a lot about breeding and growing of life rules to make environments that after periods of time leaves you with real places with spirit undercurrent, and deterministic attention to time to allow for fate-like alteration for magic systems.

So like.. you as the creator tamper and make a firey environment, then only like that which can survive in fire will prosper.
But maybe over time mutation happens some of the childrens start spouting water.. And then learn-ed behaviours of crusting lava to make shelters becomes possible. (Possibility Range)

The short - a player entering into this lava realm will meet REAL creatures that REALLY grew in and with their environment.

This is where my "you can create your functioning universe" & "universal abstractions" came from - because if you allow for new universal rules, then the life growing in your universe lives by and creates behaviours that we wouldn't know about, which is cool to watch as a creator - and probably is a blast to play in. (Take away the simulated part and replace it with imagination and you will run into that childlike land of making things up and coming up for reasons for how things work, without the need for universal abstractions and attention to how you're going to digitally byte&logic the merged systems for the universes river)

Lol, conclsuion. I'm serious w/ that passion guy. Excuse it with a "THE POWER OF LOVE" meme and you upsettingly will miss the fun. But, with the weirdo'ness of your writing - that may have secretly been your way of letting on. SOOO

Okay, I'm ready for your view. And I will try to ask the right questions so it stays on track. Taking away positivity or negativity, what is your point of view?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2021, 06:29:40 PM by Suttebun » Logged
michaelplzno
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« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2021, 06:23:59 AM »

When I met my current girlfriend, whom I intend to spend my life with, I told her I was a creep and a weirdo in our first conversation.





My point of view: I'm very analytical and I often read between the lines of what people are saying. Usually when I'm focused I commit everything that happens to memory so much that I will remember it forever, which means that I don't have too much time for bullshit since I don't want to carry it with me for all eternity.

I see people who talk about wanting to be leaders in the community who seem openly afraid to talk to me in terms of their non verbal tics. Am I intimidating? I really don't see why that would be. But that is a common thing I see from my point of view, as if I cast a shadow or something, or like there is a sign on my back that says something I can't read. Maybe its that they look down on me? That they are upset that they may somehow be less just by being seen with me?

Sometimes it feels like people literally see someone different than I am, a different haircut or even a different gender. It doesn't offend me to have people seem to see what they want to see but its difficult to actually know what is happening. Is this subjectivity? Am I making it up?

Sometimes I see people react to stuff and I remember them having a similar reaction to something else years ago. Am I unstuck from time? Am in the Phantom Realm from superman, hanging out with Zod?

The first game I made that got attention was in the IGF and about a character who saves the world and you only control them indirectly. Has my life become a game? Will people avoid directly interacting with me? Maybe the universe I created is only for me? (And the lava monsters.)

"Michael and the Lava Monsters" is the name if my 60s hippie band btw.

Its all very #weird as my friend from my own game community will say.

- - -

In terms of Love Power being a spoof, its impossible to spoof something you don't in some way respect. From my point of view, I didn't even realize that was a meme, I thought it was an old movie classic that most people hadn't even seen or known of. It seems, from where I sit, that I'm the only person who has seen The Producers. To some extent, I wish people would make fun of me more often. Not in a mean way but in a playful way.
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Suttebun
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« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2021, 06:48:53 AM »

Well first off, you look like shopkins online:
  Wizard heh heh

That's funny to tell your wife that haha.
Is "non verbal tics" their movements behind talking?

Thanks for sharing.
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2021, 01:06:15 PM »

THIS CONCEPT OF SHOPKINS INFURIATES AND ENRAGES ME. WHY DOES THE LARGEST SHOPKIN NOT SIMPLY EAT THE REST OF THE BATCH?





MY GAME IS NOT KIDDIE FARE, ITS SERIOUS ADULT STUFF. I PLAN TO GO BACK IN TIME AND WIPE YOUR FAMILY TREE OUT OF EXISTENCE FOR YOUR INSOLENCE.

Nonverbals: things that you do that aren't said out loud, looking away, biting nails, even tone of voice or just the way people position their body or head.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2021, 01:13:04 PM by michaelplzno » Logged

Suttebun
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« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2021, 07:19:56 AM »

Watch your mouth Michael.

I want to say you did a good job with your trailer, but the premise is on the wrong side.
And in the style that kids would like? Come on man. Fight that stuff!

Money isn't fun (dopamiiine).

Gatcha is unhealthier than you can believe, and it has ruined many good franchises reputations. Such as Final Fantasy, or those casino Dragon Quest games.. We have good eyes, and it's hard to come back to people's hearts from that stuff.

Get your head in the game man! Not your pocket. Are you able to turn before it's too late?

« Last Edit: February 22, 2021, 07:36:12 AM by Suttebun » Logged
michaelplzno
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« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2021, 08:08:55 AM »

So this is not free to play, you pay once and unlock the full game. If that's what you mean by Gatcha?

MGZ is about loving and caring for your pet Star. It actually uses a sophisticated computer AI model to allow you to train your pet's personality based on how you care for it. Sort of a more tasteful "Mewgenics" but WE like Edmund so I guess he gets a free pass. Maybe your Good Eye could actually try my game instead of dismissing it based on the idea that it may have loot boxes (it does not) or that it is targeted at children (it isn't).

And then, if your big mouth wants to comment on it, I'd be happy to make changes based on your feedback.

With love,



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Suttebun
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« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2021, 08:51:52 AM »

Quote
From my POINT OF VIEW it seems like your post's philosophy has been crammed down my throat many times, and yet my own POINT OF VIEW doesn't seem to be very valuable to anyone, nor have I found a way to express it that generates any kind of positive response at all. So that makes me frustrated: you may have gotten the brunt of it, and that's where I try to be nice because I have no idea who you are, nor am I making any personal judgements about you or your abilities. For all I know you are Phil Fish.

I think you don't like your own point of view, because at this point you're making yourself mad haha

just out here talking out your own mind and you put a knife up
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2021, 09:19:21 AM »

I don't understand what you mean? Knife? What Knife? *you* Suttebun started talking about Gatcha games in relation to my game which is not one of those.

In terms of my point of view: I sit in an unpleasant place in a lot of ways.

The upside: I see a lot, I get to be me, I'm an individualist, and I haven't really given up my sense of self to some meaningless external force. I get to work on what I want to work on.

The downside: The amount of space I have to be me is very minimal and the people who get into my circle seem to be filtered by some external force. An ineffable filter of some kind. And it seems I have to give up a lot of the perks of my point of view to change anything.

So yes, I'm stuck: when I make games I want to make, *you* Suttebun who is arguing about "make the game you want to make inside your inner true self" then quickly tell me that "well no, not like that."

Still confused here.

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