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[bvanevery]

The International Game Developer's Association is relaunching the "Indie Special Interest Group (SIG)."

We'll be formalizing a Constitution soon. We'd like your opinion on what the definition of an "Indie" should be, for purposes of the SIG. This is not to exclude SIG members, but rather, to focus the priorities and resources of the SIG. The definition I happen to like is
   

An 'Indie' creates video games using a business model that does not depend on the financial support of a video game publisher.

What do you think of it?

We would also like to know what the Indie SIG could, conceivably, accomplish for Indie game development that is not currently being done. Or done terribly well.

Your thoughts? Feel free to discuss here. I've been tasked with community outreach, i.e. going to websites that have Indies, finding out what they think, and reporting back to base. Feel free also to join the Indie SIG mailing list if you wish.

[r.kachowski]

that entire webpage is in comic sans 

[falsion]

that entire webpage is in comic sans 

http://bancomicsans.com/home.html 

[Gold Cray]

We would also like to know what the Indie SIG could, conceivably, accomplish for Indie game development that is not currently being done. Or done terribly well.

It could start by protecting indies from trademark trolls like IGDA Director Tim Langdell.

Also, the link for "Tom Buscaglia's Indie Legal Advice" is broken, which seems appropriate.

[bvanevery]

The IGDA is in the middle of some kind of glorious transition to a new web technology.  I am not sure of the ETA on that; it is definitely getting in the way.  The Indie SIG page is known to have many problems of both style and content.  Assume for sake of argument that it completely sucks and should be mercilessly destroyed without so much as shedding a tear.  What would you put up instead?

What about things other than the faceplate?  What can an Indie SIG do for you?

I will look up info on Tim Langdell...

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i can't believe there are officials in the igda who haven't heard of the langdell fiasco -- actually i can believe that, considering the board is giving it no attention

[r.kachowski]

yet i would imagine that igda officials would, at the very least, be aware of who is sitting on their board.

Also, the link for "Tom Buscaglia's Indie Legal Advice" is broken, which seems appropriate.

almost all the links are broken. as for replacing it, even a basic wordpress setup would be less painful to look at. But yeah it is just a cosmetic matter, pretty trivial really.

[bvanevery]

It could start by protecting indies from trademark trolls like IGDA Director Tim Langdell.

How do you respond to Tom Buscaglia's claim that it is untenable for the IGDA to take sides in a legal dispute between companies?  What would the Indie SIG operatively do about such things?

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i suggest looking more into the issue to see how people have addressed that point. this thread is a good starting point: http://www.igda.org/Forums/showthread.php?threadid=35923

as for what your special interest group could do, it could at least refuse to work with langdell and buscaglia due to their attacks on indie developers (such as not linking to buscaglia's link, broken as it is)

[bvanevery]

http://www.igda.org/Forums/showthread.php?threadid=35923

What a tome!  I responded after reading page 1, not realizing it goes on for 11 pages.  Oh well I will read it.  I've read other stuff elsewhere, I get the gist of the flap.  I know how I'd vote on Tim Langdell based on a preponderance of the evidence.

as for what your special interest group could do, it could at least refuse to work with [whomever]

I won't advocate Napoleonic Law or Mob Rule.  There has to be due process. 

[such as] langdell and buscaglia due to their attacks on indie developers (such as not linking to buscaglia's link, broken as it is)

See here you're just painting everyone with the same brush.  Buscaglia has rendered a legally principled opinion about what the IGDA should and should not do.  He hasn't "attacked Indies."  Seeing as how Buscaglia is not Langdell, I think it would be extremely foolish to try to alienate a man who does a lot of free legal work for the IGDA.  Even if you don't agree with his advice, or its political implications, I would much rather have Buscaglia and additional lawyers helping out the IGDA than trying to remove or censure him.

I value a plurality of opinion.  Democracy means getting your say, not your way.  You cannot reasonably expect your batting average to be better than 50%, as half of the people don't agree with you and are being forced, by the rule of law, to share power with you.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

personal associations aren't exactly mob rule -- i.e. if there's someone you think is immoral, even though he's committed no crime, it's not mob rule not to personally associate with that person

buscaglia has indeed attacked indies -- have you been reading his blog? what about that choking chicken comment?

[bvanevery]

personal associations aren't exactly mob rule -- i.e. if there's someone you think is immoral, even though he's committed no crime, it's not mob rule not to personally associate with that person

The Indie SIG is not a person though.  It's a group.  Censure by a group, without due process, is mob rule.  I'd be wary of having that power turned against me.

buscaglia has indeed attacked indies -- have you been reading his blog? what about that choking chicken comment?

Looks like he has subsequently deleted the "punkassed remark... choke your chicken" boldface comment, although it's still available in the Google cache.  In this comment he's not attacking Indies, he's attacking Tim Shea, who attacked Tim Langdell.  In other words, it's a flamefest.  Must admit I'm surprised at the level of Buscaglia's vitriol.  Don't hold back Tom, tell us how you really feel!

[Alec]

That website design makes me distrust the site. So ugly, broken and containing misinformation.

[bvanevery]

Ugly, sure.  Broken, sure.  Which parts are misinformation?  If they really are, I can put them on the slate for deletion.

[Craig Stern]

Back on topic for a second.

   

An 'Indie' creates video games using a business model that does not depend on the financial support of a video game publisher.

What do you think of it?

I think that's a fairly sensible and broad definition of indie, although it seems to exclude indies who aren't creating games as a "business." I would simply say, "an indie creates games without financial support from a publisher," and leave it at that.

We would also like to know what the Indie SIG could, conceivably, accomplish for Indie game development that is not currently being done. Or done terribly well.

There has been talk on these forums for some time now of creating a Steam-like service to cater to independent game developers looking for an indie-focused venue for distributing their games (though,obviously, it would need to be far far more inclusive than Steam). Someone here was working on such a program that interfaced with TIGdb for a while, but it's been months since I last saw mention of it. If SIG could do that, I'd seriously consider becoming a dues-paying member.

[Dacke]

   

An 'Indie' creates video games using a business model that does not depend on the financial support of a video game publisher.

What do you think of it?

I think that's a fairly sensible and broad definition of indie, although it seems to exclude indies who aren't creating games as a "business." I would simply say, "an indie creates games without financial support from a publisher," and leave it at that.

This is a very good point. The kind of indie I most admire, and want to be, is the kind who works with open source and/or freely shares game, code and assets. In fact, I would be reluctant to put the 'indie'-stamp on anyone who's highest priority is making money.

Also:
Buscaglia is a self declared misogynistic pig

[bvanevery]

I would simply say, "an indie creates games without financial support from a publisher," and leave it at that.

The "business model" language was deliberate on the part of the proposers.  We're having a battle about whether the SIG should be inherently business oriented or not.  That's why I was sent out to other forums to gather opinions, because we could not agree internally.

There has been talk on these forums for some time now of creating a Steam-like service to cater to independent game developers looking for an indie-focused venue for distributing their games (though,obviously, it would need to be far far more inclusive than Steam). Someone here was working on such a program that interfaced with TIGdb for a while, but it's been months since I last saw mention of it. If SIG could do that, I'd seriously consider becoming a dues-paying member.

That almost sounds like you'd be willing to eat a free lunch!  I'm not very knowledgeable about distribution technologies, but isn't it going to be a bit pricey to provide bandwidth for distributing indie games? Like, IGDA dues wouldn't cover it.

[george]

The games themselves wouldn't have to be hosted by the IGDA, would they?

[Craig Stern]

You wanted to know what SIG could accomplish for indie game development, and I told you. If it were easy or inexpensive, we would have done it ourselves already. Anyway, I'm sure you could come up with a model that doesn't rely exclusively on dues to finance the service.

[bvanevery]

You wanted to know what SIG could accomplish for indie game development, and I told you. If it were easy or inexpensive, we would have done it ourselves already.

Are you sure you told us something we could accomplish?  The IGDA has almost no money at all; I'm not sure if you're aware of that.  The Indie SIG has even less money than that, being only 1 SIG out of an organization with several SIGs.  Let me phrase the question differently.  What can an all-volunteer organization with very little money accomplish for Indie-dom?

Anyway, I'm sure you could come up with a model that doesn't rely exclusively on dues to finance the service.

We would welcome your input on the SIG mailing list, along with specific suggestions.  This is not my area of expertise, so it is inaccurate to say that I could come up with a workable model for it.  Meanwhile, I have not heard others in the SIG suggest this, so I'm doubting the expertise is there.  I suppose I could ask, but again, if you have a workable idea it would be good to share it.