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[Stegersaurus]

Let me phrase the question differently.  What can an all-volunteer organization with very little money accomplish for Indie-dom?

You could run surveys, and write articles about topics that web-magazines have covered to death! Oh wait, that's not helpful...

Let's put it this way, what skills does your volunteer team have that we could possibly exploit to get something we as indies need? It's hard to come up with suggestions that haven't been done already if the barrier to entry on the idea must already be low.

[bvanevery]

You could run surveys, and write articles about topics that web-magazines have covered to death! Oh wait, that's not helpful...

I agree that it's not so helpful.  Except insofar as it's a ceremony for directing people's energies.  It can be useful for building up the membership of a SIG.  Critical mass, involvement, and good morale are important to any volunteer organization.  That is, one should not obstruct what people want to work on, even if one considers it pointless, unless one thinks it's actively doing harm.  The SIG has a list of initiatives.  When I see a fair number of them, I think, you've got to be kidding me?  But my answer to that is to spearhead what I think is actually worth doing.

Let's put it this way, what skills does your volunteer team have that we could possibly exploit to get something we as indies need?

I realize you mean this with tongue in cheek, but part of me does not appreciate the "you... we" here.  Do you think the IGDA Indie SIG is composed of something other than Indies in the same boat as everyone else?  I'm not some paid official, in fact I'm not even an IGDA member.  The Indie SIG doesn't require me to be.  I'm just some Indie trying to figure out to what extent, if any, this SIG is worth bothering with.  I've been around the block in Open Source quite a bit.  I'm seasoned as far as what, in volunteer organizations, is not worth the time.  Still, my instinct is something useful could come of this SIG.

It's hard to come up with suggestions that haven't been done already if the barrier to entry on the idea must already be low.

Well a cashier at Wal-Mart isn't paid very much either.  That doesn't make it less of a job.  Also, originality is not a hard requirement.  A job could be done better, or be better integrated with other information, or get wider exposure, or....

[Aquin]

My problem is I'm not too sure just what it is any indie needs.  Do we need a place to find each other and set up projects?  Do we need a place to showcase work?  Do we need websites to get the word out?

I can think of several organizations and websites which do all of these quite handily.  I'm not sure what else could be done.  I think an expansion upon the existing framework would be more useful than setting up something new.

Actually... a website that deals in open source (similar to sourceforge, but I'm thinking more code snippets for handling certain game mechanics) could be pretty useful.  I'd even be willing to contribute any of my work that doesn't suck.

I dunno.  Now I'm just rambling. 

[bvanevery]

My problem is I'm not too sure just what it is any indie needs.

Indeed, a problem with Indies is they may not perceive a need for much of anything.  After all, they are Indies, used to getting things done on their own.  That's how I felt about the SIG in its 1st incarnation.  They weren't doing much, and it wasn't obvious that anything they discussed was going to be of any use to me.  This time around there seems to be more organizational energy.

Actually... a website that deals in open source (similar to sourceforge, but I'm thinking more code snippets for handling certain game mechanics) could be pretty useful.

There is a significant contingent interested in this sort of thing.  I'd even go as far as to say they're the "non-business" contingent, although I'm sure there's overlap with the more business oriented people.  Anyways, see the initiatives.

[mrfredman]

I realize you mean this with tongue in cheek, but part of me does not appreciate the "you... we" here.  Do you think the IGDA Indie SIG is composed of something other than Indies in the same boat as everyone else? 

I think the "you...we" attitude stems from the fact the the first time most of the people around here heard of the IGDA  was when the Tim Langdell scandal broke. While it is obvious that you and practically all other IGDA members were in no way involved with any of this, the actions of Tim Langdell and Tom Buscaglia, in addition to the total refusal to comment or take action by the IGDA board has painted the entire IGDA in a negative light. Not to mention the fact that on the same day you posted, a new charge of incredible douchebaggery and foul business practices on Tim Langdell's part was brought to light, so we were all overflowing with fresh rage towards Tim and the IGDA as a whole.

While I'm certain you have nothing but the best intentions towards the indie community, I doubt you will get much love or support around here, at least until this scandal has died down or been resolved, simply because you are a part of the IGDA.

After a quick browse through your website, it seems that what your ideas of what an indie developer in this day and age may also be a bit off...

Valve, RealArcade, and Yahoo Games are certainly not what I would consider independant developers, and there are a bunch of slightly less questionable companies on that list as well...

As for the original question of what you can do to support indies in general... 

Give publicity, industry knowledge, and whatever resources you have for struggling developers in your area?

Continue organizing game jams (the only positive thing I've ever heard of the IGDA doing)?

I dunno...

[bvanevery]

I think the "you...we" attitude stems from the fact the the first time most of the people around here heard of the IGDA  was when the Tim Langdell scandal broke.

Fair enough.  The previous rev of the Indie SIG didn't do jack.  I was on the mailing list for awhile, saw nothing happening for at least a year, then I unsubscribed.  Now as for who has heard of what, I had never heard of Tim Langdell or his fiasco until I came to this forum on the outreach mission.  I did know all about Mike Capps though.

the actions of Tim Langdell and Tom Buscaglia,

I've read the entire 12 page IGDA thread now.  Tom may be a good lawyer, and he may do good work for the IGDA in that capacity.  But he's a PR disaster.  He likes to fight and his language sinks to a gutter level, getting down as low as anyone he might have ever crossed swords with.  I'm surprised; I wonder if it's a deliberate "I don't need this, I dare you to kick me out for my abuse" sort of venting.  I've been kicked off of indie forums and open source mailing lists for far less, merely for being an intellectual irritant, not for foul language and deliberate abuse.  But I guess I wasn't in a position of power either.

So while I maintain that he has not attacked Indies in general, he has certainly attacked people who disagree with him.  Having someone like that "respond" for the Board, makes me consider how stressed for manpower the IGDA really is.  I mean, who would put up with me in a volunteer-only organization, if I talked to people like that?

so we were all overflowing with fresh rage towards Tim and the IGDA as a whole.

That rage really shouldn't go to rank-and-file members doing real work.  I mean, there's this Game Design SIG quietly toiling away at a much better SIG Constitution, for instance.  It's the seed of what politically should happen in the entire IGDA.  It's a pity there's no public weblink for the most recent draft.  I helped redraft a section of it, and now it's sitting before a committee of people deciding things about it.  I know they're not going to want more comments until they're done with their own polishing.  Then they'll put it out publicly, and another round of comments will ensue.  I am the one most likely to send them back to the drawing board again.   But I think they're pretty darned close to a final draft now.

I agree that the Board shenanigans are baloney and it's why I'm not an IGDA member.  I only woke up because there was finally a Game Design SIG.  I think I wanted a game design forum back in 2003 or something.  I remember getting stonewalled, some blather about diffusing resources.  Jason Della Roca, the Executive Director who recently stepped down, and I did not see eye-to-eye on principles of grassroots organization.  I'm very opposed to the "we can't do that, it will diffuse resources" cock and bull that management types in power tend to give their underlings.  A grassroots organization is whatever the grassroots wants to accomplish.  If 5 people come your way that want to do a game design forum, then you let them do it, you don't obstruct them.  They're providing the labor. 

While I'm certain you have nothing but the best intentions towards the indie community, I doubt you will get much love or support around here,

I don't need your love or support.  I am an Indie!

Your input has served a purpose.  I've seen a wider view than I had before. 

at least until this scandal has died down or been resolved,

It's never going to happen.  It will take months for any credible change over governance to occur, and by then, we'll have the next Board member scandal to contend with.  The IGDA governance is sick.  Only reason I'm bothering, is I think the Game Design SIG and Indie SIG are quite healthy.  I see them as the model of the future, the IGDA I wanted back in 2003.

simply because you are a part of the IGDA.

Ok, tell me this: if the currently organizing IGDA Indie SIG is so bad, then what's the competition?  Can you point to some other Indie organization that is trying to do something widespread for Indie-dom?  If so, I'll go talk to them.  If there really isn't one, then I submit that there may be some value in throwing your hat in the ring.  That is, if you're not so Indie that you think you're getting everything done by yourself just fine.

After a quick browse through your website, it seems that what your ideas of what an indie developer in this day and age may also be a bit off...

Valve, RealArcade, and Yahoo Games are certainly not what I would consider independant developers, and there are a bunch of slightly less questionable companies on that list as well...

Oops well maybe that's the "misinformation" that someone else alluded to.  I'll put it on the list of housecleaning items.

Give publicity, industry knowledge, and whatever resources you have for struggling developers in your area?

Continue organizing game jams (the only positive thing I've ever heard of the IGDA doing)?

Both good ideas.

[Alec]

So far, indies have just organized themselves.

Things like TIGJam, meetings at GDC and projects/competitions happen because there's a group of people here that are interested in camaraderie and collaboration. (and overall, the making and playing of a diverse selection of games)

A lot of valuable information is being shared here and other places. Maybe it doesn't result in a traditional "group", but a diverse - agile - "underwater" group is actually a lot more... badass?

Folks have thrown around the general idea of "hey, we've got a bunch of indies here, let's get together and do something!" when in fact, a lot of us are getting together and doing stuff and its already pretty awesome.

I'd like to see more getting together and more awesome, but I'm betting it'll have to stay diverse and distributed to stay innovative, lean and sexy.

[mewse]

Folks have thrown around the general idea of "hey, we've got a bunch of indies here, let's get together and do something!" when in fact, a lot of us are getting together and doing stuff and its already pretty awesome.

This is really how I see it as well.  Indies tend to make their own events, find their own groups, and support each other pretty well already.  So when someone says "Hey, I'm trying to start up a group to help Indies, what can I do to help?" my immediate reaction is that if I knew what someone could do to help, I'd already have done it myself.

[bateleur]

What can an all-volunteer organization with very little money accomplish for Indie-dom?

Apply pressure to platform owners and development software vendors to lower barriers to entry both in terms of access and costs.

The less money is needed to start developing on a platform, the more indie games you'll see there. (Consoles, handhelds, mobiles, etc.)

[Stegersaurus]

Let's put it this way, what skills does your volunteer team have that we could possibly exploit to get something we as indies need?

I realize you mean this with tongue in cheek, but part of me does not appreciate the "you... we" here.  Do you think the IGDA Indie SIG is composed of something other than Indies in the same boat as everyone else?  I'm not some paid official, in fact I'm not even an IGDA member.  The Indie SIG doesn't require me to be.  I'm just some Indie trying to figure out to what extent, if any, this SIG is worth bothering with.  I've been around the block in Open Source quite a bit.  I'm seasoned as far as what, in volunteer organizations, is not worth the time.  Still, my instinct is something useful could come of this SIG.

I was being serious with that question. The "you... we" was not saying you are different from "we", but that "you" is a finite group of people working in this sig while "we" as indie devs likely include "you" and your group. Being prevalent in the open source community is part of your personal skills that you can contribute using, and I'm asking what skills does the rest of the Indie SIG have, because we may find that there is some goal we can work towards based on who is involved in the sig. There's no magic bullet task that needs to be done for all of indiedom's benefit, but instead we need to narrow down what the SIG is capable of that is needed.

[Lynx]

Indie advocacy and legal resources like boilerplate licensing and contracts for allowing sites and stores to sell one's games might be a useful thing the IGDA Indie SIG could provide.  Indies are by definition, independent so they'll be bereft of much of the support structure that corporate game developers take for granted.

[bvanevery]

There's no magic bullet task that needs to be done for all of indiedom's benefit, but instead we need to narrow down what the SIG is capable of that is needed.

I have posted our list of initiatives several times.  That would be the "sticky" information regarding our potential capabilities.  If you want to know what people could do, feel free to ask on our mailing list.  We are formative.  If I had a good prospectus of what the SIG does and can accomplish, I don't think I'd be asking questions, I'd probably just make an Announce.

If that seems like a potential wild goose chase to you, all I can say is, that's how volunteer outfits roll.  Higher levels of certainty about service generally cost many dollars per hour!

[Aquin]

Yeah, but at the same time I think you know the capabilities of your volunteers better than we do.  There have been a lot of suggestions and ideas kicking around in this thread so far; I can only assume that some of them make sense as goals.

[bvanevery]

Yeah, but at the same time I think you know the capabilities of your volunteers better than we do.

No I don't.  The group is formative.  We have new volunteers coming along every day, offering to do different things.  We find out what they can do, in accord with what they talk about and actually do.

You seem to be objecting to the "sticky" wiki page of initiatives, like you don't want to go look at it.  Or you did look at it, and your eyes glazed over.  If that happened, what more are you expecting from it?  Does it need to be improved for external consumption?  Or is the format not particularly in the way, you're just honestly not that interested in it?  In that case I'll just write it off as "we have no demonstrable brand identity at this time" and worry about it again when we have one.

  There have been a lot of suggestions and ideas kicking around in this thread so far; I can only assume that some of them make sense as goals.

Several I have forwarded to the SIG mailing list.

[Loren Schmidt]

I'd be interested to know a bit more about the way the IGDA and its various special interest groups actually work. Could someone give a brief description? All I've found so far is mission statements and lists of ideals, which, while being very lofty, are a bit light on actual content.

This seems like it could be a potentially good resource- something with a fairly venerable image that can act as a sort of advocacy group.

Offhand, here are a few things that I think could prove valuable to the community, while still being of reasonable scope:

• Fix the website- no one is going to take the group seriously unless it is capable of at least maintaining a decent web presence. What does the website say about how seriously it takes other matters? I'd put this pretty high on the list of priorities as new members join.
• Budget licenses from companies like Adobe and AutoDesk- many development tools are already available with special licenses, and I could see it being profitable for these companies to offer similar deals to small studios. Unity's budget license is a good example of this model.
• Free legal resources- I'll second this. A lot of us really are just doing this because we want to make games. As a one, or five, or fifteen person developer, it's hard to have the specialized legal and marketing skills that large industry teams do. I could see a set of written guides backed by a couple of available free consultants going a long way.

[bvanevery]

Totally agree on the ugly website.  That's why it's at the top of the initiatives list.

Gosh, explaining the IGDA... with the current dust-ups, I'm not sure I could hope to.  Easier to explain SIGs!  SIGs are totally volunteer and totally self-governing.  I suppose we can get resources from the IGDA umbrella, somehow.  But the IGDA web technology revamp is taking a long time.  It's getting in the way of every single SIG and local Chapter.  Fortunately we've got a guy in the SIG who seems to think that doing our own web stuff is not such a big deal, and I've got some energy for that as well.  So as far as I'm concerned, screw the waiting on the rest of the IGDA.  I'm a lot more askance about the IGDA than the Indie SIG.  I think the SIGs actually get things done, when they're functional.  Some have been non-functional and died.  The Indie SIG was pretty dead the 1st time around.

Local Chapters are also easier to explain.  Some of them didn't start out as IGDA entities.  Seattle Sputnik, for instance, started before the IGDA was a thing.  The Austin Chapter also stuck an IGDA faceplate on fairly recently, IIUC.  Some of the local Chapters move around large amounts of money, getting sponsorships to fund events.  Others have very little volunteer energy or activity, and eventually die.  The efforts of a tiny number of key individuals causes their rise and fall; I think the Austin Chapter was recently revived by only 2 people working really hard at it.  I don't know what resources these people get from the IGDA umbrella.  It can't be all that much.

I think the main thing the IGDA has provided is a common faceplate and brand recognition to the game industry.  I'm not certain that's a compelling value.  Some people are currently threatening to go make some other organization, something more responsive to developer advocacy issues.  But I'll believe it when I see it.  It's one thing to make threats in some forum, it's quite another to roll up your sleeves and do the real work.  Still, I have it in the back of my mind that an Indie SIG doesn't have to be part of the IGDA, if we come to serious problems about agendas and goals.

Typical problems of volunteer organizations.  Cash poor, waxes and wanes with the efforts of individual people....