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[shig]

We could use this thread to start defining wich characters will get into the next milestone.

[falsion]

Fair use is a defense to Copyright infringement, but if Barkley sued over this, it would probably be for violation of his right of publicity, which doesn't have such a defense. Look up the Vanna White case if you don't believe me--she sued over an ad that parodied her as a robot still doing Wheel of Fortune in the future, and won. Barkley might also have a common law right to privacy claim for appropriating his likeness.

I'm not saying we'd definitely lose if he sued over it, but it would not be an easy case to win if he did.

http://www.chillingeffects.org/protest/faq.cgi#QID90

According to this and various other sources I've read, right to publicity only applies if that person's image is used for commercial purposes, as in to sell something. For example, in March 2003, eight members of the show Sopranos sued Best Buy for using their faces in an advertisement without permission.

Unless we sold this game and used Barkley's image to advertise it, then we'd have a problem. But since we aren't, I'm pretty sure this qualifies as parody.

[godsavant]

Oh, that makes sense. The Vanna White case indeed dealt with commercial matters, we should be fine.

[Dacke]

Mia (Eternal Daughter) - Doesn't seem to have enough moves, but again I didn't get very far in this game.

Mia actually has a huge, varied and awesome moveset. She has both natural abilities (where the basic attack has several levels) as well as several ammo-based weapons. If anyone wants it, I can probably supply a save-game with everything unlocked.

[William Broom]

Guys, I think you're blowing it out of proportion by saying that Barkley would sue us and shit. If he did take offence, we would just remove his character from the game. But I really doubt that he would ever know or care.

I can probably supply a save-game with everything unlocked.

Please do, if it's not too much hassle.

[Dacke]

Here you go!
A save for Eternal Daughter to show off the full powers of Mia.
This is a save just before the last boss with everything unlocked (afaik), including all hearts.
The boss is HARD. I'd suggest walking to the left to try some abilities out. That area is just HARD.

It takes some time (easiest done by playing the game) to find all the uses of the abilities you have/get.
Some things that may not be obvious:

• You can power up your main attack by pressing and holding attack.
  
• When in air you can hit down to do a flip, that hurts enemies and makes you invincible for a short moment.
  
• The ammo-based weapons can have additional effects. You can climb walls by jumping on the forks. The flame follows the floor but also walks up along walls.
  
• There are small moves that may not seem that important, but are really helpful. Up+Jump makes you "dash" backwards, faster than you can run. Down+Jump lets you slide under things. You can also double-jump, wall-jump, duck (and more?)
  
• The small dragon helps you collect stuff. When fully upgraded (as in the save) it attacks enemies.

I'd also like to point out that the main attack in it's final form is extremely powerful. It's range and power is huge compared to what you start out with in the beginning of the game. (It just won't show here, as all the enemies are super-powered too.) Your dragon is also quite powerful, even though it may not look like it.

If it would improve her chances to get in, I could possibly make a full transcription of her abilities along with images. (But I think you'll be better off just trying the game).

And just for laughs:

The other night I was a man tortured by his own creation; a father beaten by his own son. I was Joseph Guillotin put to death by a guillotine with the whole world watching and laughing.

The other night Jason Shiga made me sit down and play the final boss in Eternal Daughter for him. “Sure,” I exclaimed, “although I haven’t played in a few years… it may take a while.”

Understatement of the year. It was fucking difficult.

I cursed, I called “cheap,” I died over and over again. The game crashed twice on promising attempts. I cursed myself and Jon for making a game so brutal, so callous. Hit after hit, I would exclaim to those around me, “oh, it’s probably just another hit and he’ll die.” WRONG. My hands cramped up into little hooked claws and I sweated like a roast pig while the cathode rays irradiated me attempt after attempt after attempt. At one particularly low point in the night I consulted a walkthrough online to try and see how many hits the boss took.

BUT… after probably 30 tries, I began to make headway. I was lasting longer, figuring out tricks to keep me alive for a few more precious seconds. The real breakthrough came when I realized I could hit the boss 2-3 times each time I made it onto his hand. After that, it wasn’t long before victory was achieved. I called out to Jason and the others that the task was completed. We stood around the monitor and watched the ending unfold in all its (cheesy) glory.

So yeah, basically if you can’t beat the game you’re a pussy.

[Soulliard]

Now that I think most people who intended to respond to this thread have responded, I’ll post my reactions. A huge thank you to everyone who took the time to reply.

Short Version:
Barkley and Reimu are definitely in.
Madotsuki will be added to the roster.
Dwarf and Blue Knight will probably stay in.
Sexy Hiker, Cabadath and Akuji will be removed for now.
Asha will not be added, but will be kept in mind as a potential addition.
Kittey will be removed from the roster.
Kaltos, Alien Hominid, Bird, Rilo, Mia and Karoshi will not be added.

This brings the roster down to 16 characters, which is reasonable, and leaves us room to expand as more games are released.


Long Version:

Barkley (Barkley, Shut Up and Jam: Gaiden)
Pros:
-He’s got tons of personality.
-He’s from an excellent, popular indie game.
-He will appeal even to people who haven’t played Shut Up and Jam.
-He’s got enough moves to build a solid movelist from.

Cons:
-As a real life celebrity, it’s questionable whether he really qualifies as an indie character.
-In the unlikely event that there’s a legal challenge, it could cause major problems.

My Opinion:
I think Barkley is one of the best characters that could be included.

Your Opinion:
Nearly everyone supports Barkley’s inclusion, and barely anyone opposes it. There are some concerns over getting into trouble with real life Charles Barkley, but this seems very unlikely.

The Verdict:
Barkley will remain on the roster. The other characters from the game, like Balthios and Hoopz, have less interesting moves and are not nearly as compelling, but are still potential support characters.


Reimu (Touhou)
Pros:
-Touhou has a tremendous fan base.
-She fills a valuable role as a mobile ranged attacker.
-She helps round out the male/female ratio.

Cons:
-Touhou is not popular with many indie gamers, and other indie games are not popular with many Touhou fans.

My Opinion:
While I’ve only been introduced to the series recently, and it doesn’t really capture my interest, I support her inclusion. The Touhou series has attained a level of popularity that most indie developers can only dream of. I can’t think of any real reason not to include her (besides lack of permission, of course).

Your Opinion:
Reimu clearly has the support of many of you. A few of you don’t recognize her, though.

The Verdict:
Reimu will remain on the roster.


Madotsuki (Yume Nikki)
Pros:
-Has a small, but devoted fanbase.
-There’s a wide variety of material to build her move list from.
-Balances out the male/female ratio.

Cons:
-There’s no real combat in Yume Nikki.
-The game is pretty obscure.

My Opinion:
I have not played Yume Nikki. It doesn’t seem like the type of game that would interest me, and I don’t care to go through the trouble of getting it working on my machine. I can understand the appeal, though, and I think she would be a reasonable inclusion.

Your Opinion:
Though a few of you have not heard of her, a surprising number of you strongly voiced support for her inclusion.

The Verdict:
There’s enough support to justify adding her to the roster. I think she would make a good addition.


Dwarf (Dwarf Fortress)
Pros:
-Fills the role of a strong, slow character.
-Dwarf Fortress has a huge fanbase.
-A fair amount of work has already been done on him.

Cons:
-He doesn’t actually represent a specific indie character, unlike all the others on the roster. As a result, he has no real personality.
-It will still take quite a bit of work to make him both balanced and fun.
-Dwarf Fortress could probably be better represented as a stage.

My Opinion:
If I had to do this project all over again, I would not have approved the character. But at the time, I didn’t want to appear to be a dictator, so when his thread popped up, I let it go. A fair amount of work has been done in programming him by now, but bringing him up to the same level of quality as the other characters will still take quite a bit of effort. I’m torn about him; only Quote has given me more stress. If we stopped working on him now, we wouldn’t lose too much work. The sprite would still be used for a support character, and his moves are similar to those of some other upcoming characters, so parts of the code could be reused. On the other hand, removing him at this point would disappoint a lot of people, including the incredibly helpful Bay 12 forum regulars.

Your Opinion:
A few of you voiced support for the character. Some of those who voiced support for him seemed to do so mostly because some work has already been done on him, though. No one opposed his inclusion, but a few didn’t seem to recognize or care much about him.

The Verdict:
He should be left on the roster, for now, though he should be a low priority character. He has enough support to justify his inclusion as a playable character, but there are still probably better characters out there.


Blue Knight (Castle Crashers)
Pros:
-From one of the most widely recognized indie games.
-Plenty of material to build a unique and diverse movelist with.

Cons:
-Castle Crashers is more popular within the flash and xbox scenes than the indie scene.
-He’s not exactly a main character, so he’s not as iconic.

My Opinion:
I think he would be a great character to include, simply because he would draw more people into the game. When I tell fellow college students about the project, Castle Crashers is one of the few games that’s very frequently recognized. He’d probably be a blast to play, too.

Your Opinion:
A few of you voiced support for him, but most of you didn’t seem too excited about his inclusion.

The Verdict:
He should probably remain on the move list, though should not be the highest priority character.
As for why the Blue Knight would be a better inclusion than other Castle Crashers characters… Well, clearly the four elemental knights are the most iconic characters from the game. Of the four, the Blue Knight, with his freezing abilities, has the most potential to make an interesting brawler.


Sexy Hiker (Sexy Hiking)
Pros:
-He’s pretty funny, in a WTF kind of way.
-Could be a unique fighter.

Cons:
-He’s not terribly iconic.
-He’s very obscure.
-There’s not much to build his move list on.

My Opinion:
He was on the original roster, but that was probably just because he was suggested as a bonus character (where there was little competition), and people were voting ironically. I think he could actually work pretty well, but there are probably better ways to spend our time.

Your Opinion:
He seems to be the most divisive character. A few of you strongly support his inclusion, while others really don’t want to see him included.

The Verdict:
If we have time, after finishing the other characters, we can add him, but it would probably be best to remove him from the roster for now.


Cabadath (Trilby’s Notes, 6 Days a Sacrifice)
Pros:
-This guy is so awesomely frightening. He’s one of the most memorable indie villains.
-Would have a very interesting fighting style.
-He would balance out the good/evil ratio.

Cons:
-He’s not actually a playable character.
-He’s an obscure character from an obscure game. More people have probably heard of Sexy Hiker.
-His style is really dark compared to the rest of the cast.

My Opinion:
Cabadath is one of my favorite indie characters, and he would probably be a blast to play. He’s not exactly iconic, though, and there’s already a character from his series of games included. I would rather add characters from a game that doesn’t have a character yet.

Your Opinion:
A small number of you really love Cabadath. Most of the rest of you have either do not think he’s iconic enough, or would rather not include multiple characters from a single series.

The Verdict:
He ought to be removed from the roster for now, so that the roster features characters from a wider variety of games.


Akuji the Demon
Pros:
-He’s from one of the earliest popular indie games.
-He balances out the good/evil ratio.

Cons:
-A lot of people don’t like his game much.
-He’s a bit obscure.

My Opinion:
He was probably voted onto the original roster because Oracle had made a sprite of him first. I don’t like Akuji the Demon much myself. I found it to be a mediocre platformer with poor controls. I can understand wanting to pay homage to an indie classic, though.

Your Opinion:
No one seems too excited about the character. A number of you either didn’t recognize him, or didn’t like him much.

The Verdict:
He’ll be removed from the roster for now. After the current crop of characters is complete, we can consider adding him again.


Asha (Iji)
Pros:
-There’s actually a lot of material to build a move list from.
-He’s a very memorable character.
-He would balance out the good/evil ratio a bit.
-Iji is one of the most popular indie games ever.

Cons:
-There’s already one character from Iji on the roster.
-He’s not actually a playable character.
-His moves are almost designed to be overpowered, so he could be difficult to balance.

My Opinion:
I’m a fan of Iji, but I honestly didn’t find Asha to be all that interesting. He wouldn’t be a bad inclusion, but I’d rather not double up on characters from the same game unless the second character is really, really compelling.

Your Opinion:
A number of you opposed his inclusion because you didn’t want Indie Brawl focus too much on a single game. Not too many of you seemed to be really excited about including him, either.

The Verdict:
Let’s give some other games a chance first. Maybe some day, he’ll be added to the roster, but I don’t sense enough support to add him any time soon.


Kittey (A Game with a Kitty)
Pros:
-Kittey can serve as a representation of all of Bernie’s games.

Cons:
-The movelist is a bit of a stretch, since Kittey doesn’t have too many moves.
-The character’s pretty obscure.
-The game is pretty short.

My Opinion:
I thought AGwaK was okay, but nothing too exciting. I don’t care too much about the character.

Your Opinion:
None of you seemed to support her inclusion, and most of you opposed it.

The Verdict:
I thought Kittey would be a more popular character. It seems I’ve seriously misjudged the public opinion here. She’ll be removed from the roster.


Kaltos (The Spirit Engine 2)
Pros:
-The Spirit Engine 2 is an excellent game, and Indie Brawl could serve to get the word out about it.
-Kaltos is a memorable character with a great personality.
-There’s tons of great material to base his moves off of. He would have a really unique fighting style.

Cons:
-He’s a really obscure character.
-He’s not necessarily the game’s main character; he’s one of nine characters that the player can add to a team of three.

My Opinion:
I really love TSE2, and I really love Kaltos. It’s a shame that the game isn’t more popular, because it’s one of the best I’ve ever played. The character’s obscurity is the only real reason I can see not too include him.

Your Opinion:
Unfortunately, it’s clear that the character really is obscure, because virtually none of you recognized him. Those that did seemed to favor his inclusion, though.

The Verdict:
I can’t justify adding a character that so few recognize. I do think it’s a shame, though.


Mia (Eternal Daughter)
Pros:
-She’s from a fairly popular early indie game.
-There’s lots of material to build a diverse move list from.
-Helps even out the male/female ratio.

Cons:
-Two of Derek’s characters are already on the roster (Naija and Spelunker)
-Not as well known as some other indie characters.

My Opinion:
Eternal Daughter was too old school for me. I don’t have a problem with including her, though. Limiting characters from a developer doesn’t make as much sense as limiting characters from a game, since lots of people who’ve played Aquaria or Spelunky have probably never heard of Eternal Daughter.

Your Opinion:
Only one of you has voiced any support for her inclusion. Most either think Derek is getting enough publicity from the game already, or don’t recognize the character.

The Verdict:
While she would be an okay character, there are better possibilities for inclusion out there. There’s already a ton of stuff from Derek’s games being included, so the addition of Mia doesn’t seem necessary.


Karoshi
Pros:
-Funny, in the same way that Sexy Hiker is
-Comes from a popular series of games.

Cons:
-Building a move list is a stretch.
-Trying to kill others doesn’t fit the character.

My Opinion:
I really love the Karoshi games. I think Karoshi would be a funny addition. But it’s probably too much of a stretch. He isn’t a fighter.

Your Opinion:
Opinion is almost unanimously against making him a playable character.

The Verdict:
He will remain a support character.


Rilo Doppelori (Noitu Love 2)
Pros:
-Has a diverse move list.
-Appears in a very popular series of games.
-Would even out the good/evil ratio.
-Would even out the male/female ratio.

Cons:
-Only appears as a villain or a secondary, unlockable character (though unlike other villains, she is playable).
-There’s already one character from the Noitu Love series.

My Opinion:
Noitu Love 2 is my favorite indie game, and Rilo is one of my favorite characters from the series. That said, Asha or Cabadath would probably be better choices for villains to include, and even they are a stretch.

Your Opinion:
Most of you do not care to see her included.

The Verdict:
Rilo will remain a support character.


Bird (An Untitled Story)
Pros:
-Comes from a popular, iconic indie game.

Cons:
-There’s very little to base a movelist on.
-The character itself is not especially memorable.

My Opinion:
I couldn’t get into An Untitled Story, but I can understand its popularity. However, I don’t see how we could make a movelist for this character. That alone makes him a poor choice for a playable character.

Your Opinion:
A few of you really want to see it included, but most of you have either not heard of the character or think including him would be a bad idea.

The Verdict:
The Bird will not be a playable character.


Alien Hominid
Pros:
-Comes from one of the most well-known indie games.
-Is even popular in the mainstream.

Cons:
-Is more popular within the flash scene than the indie scene.
-There is not much material to base a move list off of.
-Both Alien Hominid and Castle Crashers were made by The Behemoth.

My Opinion:
I liked Alien Hominid okay from what I played, but I don’t see much material to build a move list with. Of the two Behemoth characters under consideration, Blue Knight seems like a better inclusion.

Your Opinion:
A few of you support AH’s inclusion, but most do not seem to want that.

The Verdict:
Alien Hominid will remain a support character.

[godsavant]

Very accurate summary you've got there. No real surprises in the end.

Is this thread going to be locked?

[Soulliard]

No. I'd like people to be able to post their reactions, and address any problems they have with my decisions.

[mr. podunkian]

the karoshi guy should be a playable character -- kind of like all of the more unconventional characters in smash bros combined into one.

for instance, he could set spikes that are invisible until someone gets close to them (and touching the spikes would do damage). he could use his gun. he could block himself with one of those reflector tiles in karoshi that deflect bullets (which would deflect projectile attacks). one gimmick could be that his attacks could do more damage if he's closer to death. his double jump could place a temporary, collideable tile beneath him with a fake mouse cursor that kind of goes off in a random direction (so it looks like he'd just jumped off a tile that had been created by the click of a mouse.) he could have an attack that places random items, except when you press the button to pick up the item, it turns out they're a smiley face wearing an object shaped hat (kind of like that one level in karoshi 2.0 where the spikes are actually smiley faces wearing spike shaped hats). maybe self inflicted damage could heal him?

karoshi is one of the most creative and unconventional games i've ever played with so many asshole tricks, and i feel like the karoshi character should have a bunch of asshole moves that don't really fit the conventions of the other characters. i don't think he doesn't work as a playable character insofar that i don't think mr. game and watch/solid snake don't work as characters in the smash bros games.

[shig]

-Dwarf Fortress could probably be better represented as a stage.

If I had to do this project all over again, I would not have approved the character.

I've changed my mind and now agree with this completely. Dwarf Fortress would be better as a stage and we could use the Dwarf sprites we have now on the background of said stage.

[Strong]

I agree with this for the most part. I'd like Sexy Hiker to get in there at some point- he's a good representative of B-games, which as of now have no representation at all in the game- but I understand that you want to work on others first.

[Craig Stern]

Cons:
-Is more popular within the flash scene than the indie scene.

[battlerager]

Cons:
-Is more popular within the flash scene than the indie scene.

:D

[Soulliard]

I probably could have put it more delicately, but it is true. Newgrounds regulars are a lot more familiar with Alien Hominid than TIGS regulars.

[Karuvitomsk]

I'm in agreement. I mean, compared to Castle Crashers it feels a little more "indie" if you catch my drift, but it's still really not a talked-about title around here.