Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1411283 Posts in 69325 Topics- by 58380 Members - Latest Member: bob1029

March 29, 2024, 06:16:53 AM

Need hosting? Check out Digital Ocean
(more details in this thread)
TIGSource ForumsDeveloperBusinessWhat do you pay artists/musicians?
Pages: [1]
Print
Author Topic: What do you pay artists/musicians?  (Read 3298 times)
Lynx
Level 5
*****


Upstart Feline Miscreant


View Profile WWW
« on: July 14, 2009, 06:03:19 PM »

I'm in a relatively enviable position: I have a day job, and I have spare time in which to work on game programming.  What I don't have is a lot of spare time to also generate art, or the training to generate music that would be useful for these games.  On the other hand, I do have friends who are trained in art (if not necessarily in game art, per se) and I could possibly find someone to do music as well.

My question is, what's a fair rate?  So-and-so amount per hour?  Or pay by the piece?  How about concept art, what's fair payment for this sort of thing?  And how much 'do this over' does my money buy, if I'm not satisfied with the way something looks/sounds?

Let's take a couple examples and break them down:

Breaker Space:

Art Assets:
- Concept art for ship classes (player ship, 3 classes of friendly ships, 5-7 classes of enemy ships)
- 3D models of ships (to be converted into 2D sprites)
- 3D models of ship guns (to be converted into 2D sprites)
- Cutscene backgrounds, probably 20 or so 'starscapes' and the like
- Character art for use in cutscenes
- Character 'talking head' art, 3-5 major characters who might need up to 5 "moods" each, and 5-8 bit players

Music Assets:
- 10-15 level soundtracks, assuming I don't reuse any, or 5-7 'area soundtracks' with reuse
- Intro music, cutscene music of perhaps 5 moods

Unnamed Game:

- Tiles for level maps
- Character "talking head" art, as if they were talking into video-phones
- Diagrams, "photos" of advanced weapon systems at work (hidden in data the player retrieves)
- Cutscene art, if useful (though I'd prefer to avoid it as breaking immersion in this game)
- Ending animated movie, if I wanted to blow the budget?

You get the idea!  There are a lot of art assets that go into these games, and while I could probably do my own art, with a sufficiency of time, it wouldn't be as good as a trained, experienced artist - and I know I can't do my own music without a lot more practice and time.  So if I want to be fair and pay someone for their time, what's a fair arrangement?
Logged

Currently developing dot sneak - a minimalist stealth game
Aquin
Level 10
*****


Aquin is over here.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2009, 06:20:00 PM »

Wow.  I really have no clue.  But I'm also curious as to the answers.

I can't imagine paying someone less than $20/hour for this kinda stuff, unless they lack experience or they're nice or something.  I don't know what anything is worth (clearly.)

If it's a commercial project, I wonder if you could find artists willing to invest time (for a cut of the pie, obviously) instead of paying them right-out.  I dunno if that's a good idea either.
Logged

I'd write a devlog about my current game, but I'm too busy making it.
Craig Stern
Level 10
*****


I'm not actually all that stern.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2009, 06:42:11 PM »

The answer: whatever the person you're negotiating with is willing to accept. As for what's fair, well, I would imagine that that depends on the experience and skill of the person you're paying.

There are a couple of threads devoted to this topic on the indie gamer forums:

For graphics: http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=3835
For music: http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=6857
Logged

Hima
Level 4
****


OM NOM NOM


View Profile WWW
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2009, 06:50:09 PM »

I think it depends on which country they come from too...People I know are happy to do the clean up art (inking, tracing) for $3/drawing.

Quote
If it's a commercial project, I wonder if you could find artists willing to invest time (for a cut of the pie, obviously) instead of paying them right-out.  I dunno if that's a good idea either.

I tried that and found that it isn't really a good idea, considering the artists are likely to be the one who lost motivation and want to drop out Sad I think paying them for what they do keep motivate them to work on the project.
Logged

ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
Level 10
*****


Also known as रिंकू.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2009, 07:27:47 PM »

i just pay them a percent of the sales / royalties rather than any lump sum, but we're friends so that makes the most sense in my case. if they were strangers rather than friends i'd probably prefer to pay them once and forget about it rather than perpetually
Logged

Lynx
Level 5
*****


Upstart Feline Miscreant


View Profile WWW
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2009, 10:32:42 PM »

This reply made the most sense in the first thread linked:

Quote from: KNau
I personally would never pay an hourly rate on freelance work and I don't know anyone who does. You don't want to get stuck paying for time the artist spent surfing the web or reinstalling their Wacom drivers.

The best way to get this done is to itemize your needs and have the artist bid on a price and timeline for completion. They can either offer a bid for the total project or on a per item basis, but it's up to them to figure out their time requirements and let you know up front.

Also, get a paper route or something and pay cash only - don't ever offer royalties!

To produce all of the artwork for even a simple game you would be in the 4 figures minimum. A good "round number" I often reference is $500 dollars a week to engage a professional artist. If you offer a project that you expect will take up 4 months of their time then start with the sum of $8,000 dollars and negotiate as much as you can.

Splitting the project up between a handful of artists can bring the price down significantly since they tend to bid lower on small jobs. So when you tally 5 small jobs up, it becomes cheaper than contracting out 1 big job. Also, if you're willing to learn a bit about "cleaning up" artwork you can look outside the video game industry (cartoonists, painters, etc.) and you usually find more original work of better quality for cheaper, but it needs to be converted, resized and alpha'd in order to work in your game.

Lastly, you can save a real bundle by buying game assets from dedicated sites. The downside is that other developers have access to the same objects but the upside is you get them incredibly cheap compared to custom work.

If you are a hardcore programmer then I say create your art assets procedurally in the game engine. That'll show 'em!

Incidentally, it's an industry-wide acceptance that it's easier to teach an artist to use a computer than it is to teach a tech-person how to draw. But then I do both, so I don't have to take crap from anybody Smiley

However, there are certainly artists who prefer to charge by the hour.  And this one person offers a counter opinion that has merit:

Quote from: Rainer Deyke
Also, they give me more flexibility in requesting changes. If I don't like a piece of art and want the artist to redo it, or if find that I need additional artwork to keep my levels from looking bland, or if I suddenly need completely different art assets because I redesigned large parts of the game in a flash of inspiration, hourly rates give me that flexibility. And if I feel that an artist isn't doing an adequate job, hourly rates allow me to terminate my relationship with that artist without negotiating about how much I should pay him for the time he already invested in my project.

With respect to music:
Quote from: Phil Steinmeyer
In the indie market, I'd guess that the top of the market is probably closer to $200/minute, and there are budget solutions available at much lower prices.

At the high end of the casual market, development budgets are probably around $150K. I think in most cases, music would get a max ~5% allocation of that.

So the answer seems to be that music gets charged 'per minute'.  Also a lot of developers apparently like to license royalty-free songs from various sites, which may be a worthwhile choice.
Logged

Currently developing dot sneak - a minimalist stealth game
Alec S.
Level 10
*****


Formerly Malec2b


View Profile WWW
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2009, 11:14:28 PM »

i just pay them a percent of the sales / royalties rather than any lump sum, but we're friends so that makes the most sense in my case. if they were strangers rather than friends i'd probably prefer to pay them once and forget about it rather than perpetually

I've been thinking about this if I team up with one of my artist friends for a larger project.  About what percent do you generally pay?
Logged

ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
Level 10
*****


Also known as रिंकू.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2009, 11:33:10 PM »

I've been thinking about this if I team up with one of my artist friends for a larger project.  About what percent do you generally pay?

immortal defense is 60-10-10-10-10 (team of 5), saturated dreamers will probably be 50-10-10-10-10-10 (team of 6). i do the most work and spend the most hours working on the games (programming/designing/directing/marketing/etc.), each of the other people on the team contributes resources (music, sprites, etc.).

i just go with 10's because it's even and easy to calculate mentally every month. i.e. if the monthly sales amount to $184, then it's easy to know how much to pay each person that month ($18.40) without having to use a calculator. it's probably a stupid reason to decide on a percent of course, but it's simple
Logged

Loren Schmidt
Level 10
*****



View Profile WWW
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2009, 11:43:57 PM »

As someone who started out as a visual artist, I tend to think that an hourly rate is probably the best fit.

Having a flat rate per asset isn't really fair, because there's often a bit of effort required on the artist's part before it's even possible to create engine-friendly assets (this is particularly true in 3d). For instance I once did a contract job where I created environments for a 3d game. This was a really extreme case, but figuring out how to set up the scenes took longer than actually modelling them.

Also art naturally requires reworking as the game progresses, and any good working relationship should be built around that expectation.

I'm not sure what to suggest regarding freeware or less formal collaborations. The greatest danger seems to be people losing motivation or being shanghai'd by real life. I recently totally flaked out on a project I initially was really excited about (sorry Siiseli!). I'd be interested to hear what sorts of tips people have to prevent that sort of thing from happening, as it can really derail a project and put strain on friendships.
Logged
Havok
Level 1
*


View Profile WWW
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2009, 12:46:31 AM »

I'll chime in on the music issue and try to help you out. Most of this is based on my limited experience in the industry with my own work and seeing others offer their services. Musicians work several different ways. Some for percentages of sales, some per minute of finished music, some per hour, some for free (!).

Stay away from the per hour payment for reasons previously stated. It's hard to monitor someone doing work over the internet while making sure you are getting their best work for a decent price.

Free is also generally iffy. This is from someone who has done free work in the past. Many will do music for free so they can build a portfolio and break into the industry. That's fine and all but money is a good motivator. Good musicians invest thousands of dollars in studio setups and years in music training and the quality of music you can get because of that is worth some decent compensation. It's the same as a good graphic artist putting in money and time to learn their trade.

Percentage of sales is a viable option for low to no budget games that are looking to make money after release. I can imagine this becomes a headache to keep track of after the game releases but to each their own. This requires a lot of trust on the musician's side as there is a good chance they have no idea of the real sales number of a game.

The best in my experience is paying per minute (or per track) at the satisfactory completion of the music. The developer knows what they are paying for and the musician knows what they are getting. It's a one-time payment and it is up to the musician to evaluate the requirements and give an accurate quote for the music. This seems to be the most beneficial arrangement to both parties. For myself a bit of "do-over" is built in as things are bound to be fine-tuned as music progresses and the game is put together. Most musicians rework their pieces a bit anyway. Granted, rewriting a whole track in a different style or adding and deleting large sections of instruments will generally require some more money. Make sure you are both on the same page before they launch into it.

Paying per minute? Rates vary widely from $10 to $1000 and more. For indie games it will be lower. That is something that needs to be worked out to everyone's satisfaction. Because of the low budget of indie games you may run across non-exclusive licenses or temporary exclusivity to help the musician regain some of their costs in the future. I've seen other unique ways of working with the system and I personally am experimenting with my own way to keep prices low yet make it worthwhile.

Hopefully that helped a little bit. I am biased but I firmly believe music is just as integral a part of any game as design, art, programming, marketing, and everything else. And if your interested in any music for your projects let me know. My website link is at the bottom. [/shameless plug] Wink
Logged

I love audio: Engineering, Sound Design, Composition
ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
Level 10
*****


Also known as रिंकू.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2009, 12:52:36 AM »

"This requires a lot of trust on the musician's side as there is a good chance they have no idea of the real sales number of a game."

not necessarily. even though i only work with friends on my games and i'm sure they trust me, i make a point to set up the payment processor to email everyone whenever a sale is made, not just me. copies of every sale go to everyone on the team automatically, same as with me. so it'd be impossible for me to cheat them out of something even if i wanted to, since they have access to everything i have access to.
Logged

bateleur
Level 10
*****



View Profile
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2009, 01:03:05 AM »

A quick note on hourly rates: Whether they're a good idea depends in part who you're hiring. If you know for sure that the person is a reputable professional who will invoice you accurately and keep you well informed of progress, meet milestones and so on then paying by the hour will get you best value.

How do I know this? Because I work freelance for a living. When a customer wants a fixed price quote, I have no choice but to bill them for a pessimistic number of hours. Also, customers who want fixed price invariably expect you to do all kinds of things for free (!) and so you need to cost that in.

Fixed price is like buying insurance. Sometimes you need it, but mostly it's a huge waste of money.
Logged

Havok
Level 1
*


View Profile WWW
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2009, 08:31:28 AM »

A quick note on hourly rates: Whether they're a good idea depends in part who you're hiring. If you know for sure that the person is a reputable professional who will invoice you accurately and keep you well informed of progress, meet milestones and so on then paying by the hour will get you best value.

How do I know this? Because I work freelance for a living. When a customer wants a fixed price quote, I have no choice but to bill them for a pessimistic number of hours. Also, customers who want fixed price invariably expect you to do all kinds of things for free (!) and so you need to cost that in.

Fixed price is like buying insurance. Sometimes you need it, but mostly it's a huge waste of money.

I see where you are coming from but in most industries fixed price is the way to go because it helps everyone budget much, much better. Sure an artist can offer a pessimistic number for their price but then the person they are negotiating with can say "no" if it is out of their budget. Then you either lower your price or you have no work. It sort of allows you both to lay everything out on the table with minimal surprises.

I do agree with you though. Hourly can be a good deal as you said.

Paul: That's a pretty cool setup! This hadn't occurred to me but seems to solve my hesitancy on the issue.
Logged

I love audio: Engineering, Sound Design, Composition
Hima
Level 4
****


OM NOM NOM


View Profile WWW
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2009, 10:16:55 AM »

I have one question about hourly work though, when hiring someone over the internet or not working in the same place. How do you know how many hours they actually have done the work?  I hope this doesn't sound stupid!  Concerned
Logged

Craig Stern
Level 10
*****


I'm not actually all that stern.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2009, 02:32:41 PM »

You have to trust them to provide you with an invoice that accurately depicts the time they actually spent. If you don't trust them to do that, don't hire them on an hourly basis.
Logged

SteveHarris
Level 0
**


No, I'm not the guy from Iron Maiden


View Profile WWW
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2009, 04:56:58 AM »

I just paid $6 a track for my game http://www.turningthetide.info 12 tracks overall costing me $72 very reasonable I think. I do recommend the chap too... his name is Johan Hargne http://johan.hargne.se/

Steve
Logged

Martin 2BAM
Level 10
*****


@iam2bam


View Profile WWW
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2009, 08:23:47 AM »

I don't really know actual prices, but in Argentina (where I live) is far cheaper. You could get in touch with people here at http://www.adva.com.ar/foro
It's in Spanish but you can post in english (almost everybody talks english)

For music I recommend contacting Forging Sounds, you can check the music he made for me in the The Duke video.
He's an indie music guy that studies music composition and just rules.

Made non-metal music also for some other competition games. Contact him and ask!

-Martín



Logged

Working on HeliBrawl
weasello
Level 1
*



View Profile WWW
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2009, 10:27:00 AM »

I personally think games should survive on gameplay alone, and art/sound is stupid, but thankfully I have the foresight to know I'm horribly wrong somehow and some of the biggest successes ride on art over function! I should really get around to changing my opinion someday. Wink

I like to find people that truly love their craft as a hobby (for both art and music). The rates are a lot lower than businesses. Though there is an inherent risk (no guarantee of quality), it works both ways - you can unearth a diamond in the rough. Businesses will also give you other advantages - fast delivery times, sample portfolios, etc.

Unfortunately, it's hard to meet that kind of person unless you go scouting around IRL, which seems to be the equivalent of daylight to a vampire around these parts Smiley

For my recent projects I enjoy a percentage split that is negotiated. I'm fairly generous with the cuts I give for two reasons:

 - I love programming so much I don't mind doing it for deep discounts.
 - I want all parties to be heavily invested in the future of the property.

I hate paying flat-fees because I get this (hopefully unfounded) feeling that the person doing the job is just doing it 'for the cash' and doesn't care about the game - and won't give it that TLC that it needs.

The flip side of the coin, is that it's hard to go into business with someone like this, as there's no guarantee everyone else will live up to their end of the bargain, and everyone might turn out losing. I insist on knowing the person and their previous work before embarking together.

Hopefully in the end you can all share a beer over  Hand Money Left Tears of Joy Hand Money Right
Logged

IndieElite4Eva
Pages: [1]
Print
Jump to:  

Theme orange-lt created by panic