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[ashpdewan]

Hi everyone!

I decided to make a shmup . Yeah, this genre is not quite popular... But why? I mean, I know that a lot of people are put off by the difficulty of these games. But is that the only issue, or am I missing something? What do you guys think? Are there any other reasons why shmups are not so popular nowadays?

[s0]

In my opinion:

1. It's an old genre that hasn't seen major innovation since like the early 00s

2. It thrives most in the arcade format, which is basically dead

3. It's become very esoteric (think bullet hell games and their scoring systems)

4. At the same time, attempts to make shmups more modern or more accessible often ruin the core of what makes them good, and by going the traditional/retro route, you risk just making a worse version of a game that already exists. You'd have to innovate in a meaningful way, which isn't easy.

I like shmups and I hope some game comes along that makes them more popular again, but currently I'm not seeing that happening

[Golds]

The way people are talking about shmups now, they're due for a Rennaissance

[ashpdewan]

In my opinion:

1. It's an old genre that hasn't seen major innovation since like the early 00s

2. It thrives most in the arcade format, which is basically dead

3. It's become very esoteric (think bullet hell games and their scoring systems)

4. At the same time, attempts to make shmups more modern or more accessible often ruin the core of what makes them good, and by going the traditional/retro route, you risk just making a worse version of a game that already exists. You'd have to innovate in a meaningful way, which isn't easy.

I like shmups and I hope some game comes along that makes them more popular again, but currently I'm not seeing that happening

2. I don't think the arcade format is a problem here. We have arcade-ish beat'em ups and fighting games nowadays and they are still quite popular.

4. Exactly! It looks like one of the main problems with shmups.

Also I think that another big problem is wasting a lot of time if players are not very skilled. Like, "Hey, you died! Restart the entire game from the very beginning!" or something. And unfortunately this problem cannot be fixed just by placing a bunch of checkpoints through the entire game.

[Schoq]

As a quick thought it doesn't seem like people are generally put off by difficult games without save points, but it's probably telling of something that most of the popular ones (thinkin roguelites) still feature some kind of permanent progression.
That has been tried to some degree in shmups before (e.g. in R-Type Final), probably many times at this point, I haven't kept up.
I can't imagine no indie dev with some talent hasn't already implemented the idea of unlocking new ships or pilots or whatever from incomplete runs, but that seems like the obvious "modernization" feature to try.

[s0]

It's been tried many times but it never seems to gel 100%. Dariusburst: Chronicle Saviors is a shmup with a "story mode" that I liked, but that's probably not enough to revive the genre.

Btw I recently played a game called Gunlocked that was basically a Vampire Survivors like with a few more traditional shmup elements thrown in. Maybe something like that is the way forward, who knows

[michaelplzno]

Hmm, when someone makes a new kind of SHMUP no one seems to notice. 

[Schrompf]

I haven't found a revunitating idea for shmups, yet. I tried a few modern takes over the years, and I noticed:

a) I'm annoyed by roguelite attempts. Give me proper level design.
b) I'm annoyed by overly complex weapons or scoring systems or mechanics. I want to shoot things!
c) If the difficulty is high, I give up soon, and if it's low enough to manage, I'm through in half an hour.

And I imagine c) being the main reason why they all design overly complex systems aimed at "replay value".

There are good takes, though. Squad 51 vs. the Flying Saucers I enjoyed alot. Even though the One-Hit-Kills put me off. Maybe it all boils down to the fact that I'm 30 years older by now, with less spare time and many more obligations, and also a million games to choose from.

Hm... nowadays I'm mostly playing games to have a nice story and a conclusion and loads of Production Value. Maybe there's potential in ubisofting the shmup genre with some semi-open worlds, POIs to tackle, some quests, maybe a crafting system to add cheap busywork.

[michaelplzno]

For your consideration:

[jbarrios]

Would you consider games like Star Fox 64 and Panzer Dragoon shmups?

I've always wondered why there are so few of those 3d rail shooters.  I really enjoyed them and the phase was short lived.

[ashpdewan]

Perhaps one of the most "modern" shmups I can remember is Danmaku Amanojaku - Impossible Spell Cards. It has a bunch of short and incredibly hard boss battles, but you can instantly restart them at any time and you won't lose any progress if you die. There are several helpful items which you can equip specifically for each stage. And you can even upgrade them! Personally I suck at bullet hell games but I managed to beat Impossible Spell Cards and I'm still proud of it .

Would you consider games like Star Fox 64 and Panzer Dragoon shmups?

I've always wondered why there are so few of those 3d rail shooters.  I really enjoyed them and the phase was short lived.

I would call this type of games as "more expensive shmups to make", which might explain why there are so few of them.

[s0]

c) If the difficulty is high, I give up soon, and if it's low enough to manage, I'm through in half an hour.

And I imagine c) being the main reason why they all design overly complex systems aimed at "replay value".

That's kinda what I meant by "they thrive in the arcade format". The thing is, video games have become a lot more content oriented (vs mechanics oriented) in the last 2 decades, and we have higher expectations for how much content should be in a game, which often results in games adding more "grindy" systems.

This puts shmups at a disadvantage because I don't think they benefit that much from adding more content or adding grind. The fact that they're short, high intensity and relatively static skill tests is the core of what makes them fun (imo at least). This type of gameplay is a natural fit for arcades, but struggles to find a place in the modern gaming market, which kinda condemns the genre to a niche existence.