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[michaelplzno]

My counterpoint was already well established, but I'll put it in one place for you:

One shouldn't have to be so profoundly exceptional at art that they recreate the entire universe around their style to make a decent living from art. (Which, related to the thread, is part of my mistake.) Systemically, I know there are a lot of artists, and I know everyone wants to make art, and so on, and since there is more art than eyeballs some people's stuff won't get seen, and thus there has to be a curatorial process by which the so called "bad" or "unworthy" stuff is hidden, and the "good" or "real art" is seen.

That curatorial process is in trouble if you look at social media and see what trends.

My mistake: I assumed that there would be something where someone at my level of talent could get their foot in the door, rather than it being all or nothing.

a talented child

I don't have time to list all the talented children who's art has defined a generation, or the artists who, more than anything, aspire to create art in the idiom of a talented child. The list would likely be too long to fit in this post.

unique skill, perspective, or message does your art express that might go beyond a child’s drawing?

My games often have unique hooks or new kinds of play that I doubt a child could invent... or if a child did, then they would be talented to the point that their childishnes didn't matter.

My drawings are not so easy to reproduce or for a child to make. They say that the pokemon, which are part of the biggest franchise in history, are designed to be able to be drawn by children.

So yet again, childishness isn't really a death sentence unless you have a stick up your rear about how "I'm an ADULT!" which is ironcially very childish.





When samburg yells that he is in fact an adult it was a glorious moment. What, do you have to be able to rent a car legally in order to make art?

So to sum up my counter "What of it? Why is childlike art inferior?"

[J-Snake]

Why is childlike art inferior?

It comes down to maturity. Adults can express more within a limitation, and they have a greater range of emotions. Your style maps to a certain subset of emotions which are not deep. You should be aware of this limitation. Your bird picture was not a good fit because of it. An impactful passionate kiss requires more detail and less abstraction.

[michaelplzno]

Maturity? Greater range of emotions? More detail and less abstraction? Why is that better?

It just sounds like you like a certain kind of art and are telling me that mine is inferior based on your own personal measuring stick that my art isn't EMOTIONAL enough for you. As yes, we all know that more mature people have more sophisticated emotions: When I think of a full-grown stockbroker, lawyer, or doctor, I think "These are adults who are in touch with their emotions in a meaningful way." Even a so called "adult" artist who makes a hollocaust piece may in fact be pretty damn immature when it gets right down to it, particularly if they are doing it just to get attention.

Generally, the process of being an adult is burying your emotions to do more useful stuff, children's emotions are more vivid, powerful, honest, and ... imo ... impactful.

But again, this is all arbitrary assumptions, that the so called "mature" kiss (you have yet to show me such a masterwork that satisfies you) is more passionate is all based on your own likes, and not any meaningful distinction.

[michaelplzno]

This vision for a weird old artist who is super in touch with their emotions seems isolating and bizarre. This enlightened "uber-artist" is so far away from the human experience that normal people have. I doubt they would make much art at all, let alone stuff that we humans can relate to.

So far above humanity that normal people are like insects. Not only does it sound like a miserable way to live but I can't imagine producing anything good with that attitude.

It may be childish, and limited, and inferior, but to love humanity is the only way to make something that matters. And if you go around acting like you have access to some grand extra dimension of thinking above the rest of the world, I doubt you will make much art, or even be much fun to interact with.

[nathy after dark]

I actually agree with a lot of your points and find some of your art cool. I just don’t see anything solution-oriented in your rants—that’s why i said “yelling at a cloud.” Like, you’re so sure your work is good, you’ve happily found your creative voice and it’s up to your standards. The only problem is elites gatekeeping you. So what are you gonna do about it? And if other small neglected indies agree with you, what should they do? What could we all do together?

Voicing your frustrations on its own isn’t getting you anywhere.

To be honest, at this stage in my dev career my mindset is leaning towards (disappointed) acceptance that my dev passion projects are not a money making endeavor.

And if you object that this is too defeatist and gloomy, I want to hear real other options.

EDIT: For example, I think Universal Basic Income would solve a lot of this. But since UBI is a lofty goal and the US government will never do it, I think forming/joining local mutual aid communities is the right direction to go. Making money and sales less relevant to whether or not we can survive making art.

[J-Snake]

Maturity? Greater range of emotions? More detail and less abstraction? Why is that better?

In the same way that a human can hold more value than a fly due to a broader range of emotions, feeling is everything. For someone without a spiritual perspective, this may seem like a circular answer.

Generally, the process of being an adult is burying your emotions to do more useful stuff, children's emotions are more vivid, powerful, honest, and ... imo ... impactful.

The mind is like a vessel—it becomes whatever you fill it with. Your perception of adulthood is shaped by cultural trends, which may prevent you from seeing the essence of my message. An adult’s vessel is larger than that of a child, capable of holding greater depth and value.

My drawings are not so easy to reproduce or for a child to make.

So can you elaborate on why that is? Everything else was dancing around this question.

[Schrompf]

I still remember when this thread was about Lessons Learned (tm). Maybe you want to take it to PMs? Please.

[J-Snake]

I wanted every mechanic to be RIGHT. Not exactly balanced, but thought through and purposeful.

This should be the default, and any negative deviation from it considered a mistake. My main problem with most games is that they don't meet this standard.

Next time I won't make THAT mistake, and the game will be out MUCH quicker 

Yes, but the game quality will often suffer. To give the benefit of the doubt, I’m a fan of well-executed, potentially minimalist arcade design. You can absolutely get those games right and produce them quickly if that’s the goal. From a financial perspective, it might even be more profitable to release 100 experimental or mediocre games than to focus on creating a single high-quality one. But if we’re talking about adding lasting value to gaming, one great game can often contribute more than a hundred average ones. This is why the original Doom is still played today.

[michaelplzno]

So can you elaborate on why that is?

Have you ever actually spent time with children JSnake? They don't draw like me. My drawings are typically more sophisticated and exhibit finer motor control than children can muster. More focus and discipline too. To some extent, I could be making even more childlike images instead of trying for whatever hellish uber-mench existence you aspire to.

And why is a vessel that can contain more better? A 40 foot pitcher of water won't be useful to a human who is thirsty without a ton of extra work, engeneering and so on, as opposed to a canteen which is much more useful.

I just don’t see anything solution-oriented in your rants

Well as Schrompf points out, this thread is about making mistakes. Which I think I have elaborated on an issue that many people have in the indie world, the mistake of thinking that once an artist has a style they are proud of anyone would care. What would I do next time?

Not go to LA, which generally made me distrust a lot of artists.
Not go to GDC, which also was unpleasent.

What can some indie do?

Just give me one of these:

[J-Snake]

I understand that we're derailing the thread quite a bit. So I'll conclude with this for now:

And why is a vessel that can contain more better?

Because it allows you to engage with whatever you want or need to do in a more complete way. If I want to be playful, I can fully embrace playfulness. If I need to be serious, I can be deeply serious. When you're in control of your vessel, you can fill it with healthy values and keep it free from harmful poison. Unfortunately, too many adults neglect this, allowing their vessel to be filled with things that don't serve them.

Have you ever actually spent time with children JSnake? They don't draw like me.

Plenty. And children love spending time with me:) But that's not the point here. I don't need to spend time with them for my assessment of the art.

My drawings are typically more sophisticated and exhibit finer motor control than children can muster.

Out of everything shared so far, this is the first sentence that directly addresses the point. Just to clarify, my intention is not to bash your art in any way but to encourage a thoughtful evaluation of your own work. From the perspective of an average viewer, including your bird drawing and what you showed recently in this thread, which you seem content with, I can say that an 8-year-old with some training could achieve a similar level of motor control.

The sophistication of the work is up for debate. For instance, with more effort, the wings of the yellow bird could convey a majestic touch, adding depth and appeal. In general, if sophistication is present, it requires more deliberate effort to make it stand out. That said, there's still a compelling case to be made for how your art sets itself apart from that of a well-trained 8-year-old, especially if your goal is to make a living selling it. That's it.

[michaelplzno]

first sentence that directly addresses the point

It's your point jsnake, not mine, I don't care to get into a pissing contest with anyone, let alone children. You think my art is that of a talented 8-year-old... ok, Why should I care? Why does your opinion matter? And why do I have to prove you wrong just because your ability to understand art is so weak?

Edit: I am a bit intimidated by all the powerful art you've shown us, jsnake, really prolific.

Edit2: As I've mentioned many times on tig and in this thread, it's a mistake to think that you can just make art and let it stand for itself.

[J-Snake]

You obviously care, otherwise you wouldn't post and complain that much.

Second, I never claimed to be an artist or a musician or an expert in those things. The whole point of most art and music is to leave an impact on "average" people. And that was the perspective that I shared.

That said, art still possesses objective properties that can be analyzed. So far, you've only mentioned motoric fine control, and that's about it. I think I've clarified everything at this point. Any further discussion would only become circular.

[michaelplzno]

I guess my biggest mistake was not knowing what I care about. Thank you jsnake for explaining that to me, a mere speck of dust compared to your greatness.

Some day, I will know what impact my art has on average people, but you, lord 3d jsnake, are clearly not average. So, while I care what average people think, I REALLY care what you think. Why do I care? Because you told me I do. Thank you for blessing me with the authority of your non-artist expert opinion.