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[ThemsAllTook]

@Michael: Since you've mentioned a few times that you'd like more feedback on your art, I can share my basic impressions of it. Since you've posted so much of it, I've seen quite a few of your works, and I've found them largely indistinguishable. All I really see is "abstract art doodles", and without anything more to anchor into, all I get out of each piece is that it's a collection of shapes and colors.

I don't remember when it was, but there was a post of yours I read once where you broke down some of the symbolism in one of your art pieces, and it sounded like you had a lot more in mind than what met my eyes when I looked at the picture. However, I couldn't tell whether that was a retroactive interpretation of how the piece turned out, or if the intention was there before you put anything on paper. Do you start each drawing with an idea in mind of the story you want to tell, or does it happen organically as the shapes come out?

The issue I have is that my interest fades before I get as far as picking apart any symbolism or anything. My eyes kinda just slide off the composition after looking at it for a few seconds. I haven't said this before because it doesn't feel good to leave lukewarm or mildly negative feedback, particularly when I don't have any stake in what I'm seeing. Maybe this is what you're seeing from other people too? In a way, a lack of feedback is itself feedback, if you can tell it apart from people just not seeing your work in the first place. Since you've posted so many of these pictures, I would take it as a sign that the overall genre doesn't resonate with a lot of the people who are seeing them.

However, here's an idea: I think I would find it very interesting to see one of your pictures brought to life in an interactive form. Some sort of video game or other experience where I could actually navigate around in one of the places you've drawn, and by navigating the space and learning its rules, maybe I could actually get into your head and see it in a way that's closer you how you see it. Can you imagine a way to animate these pictures? Could a game world be created where you move around in one in a coherent way? I have no idea how I would create such a thing, but with your artistic vision, maybe you'd be able to.

[Mark Mayers]

I don't work hard, the system is great, and I can't read. Are we done yet?

Michael, I know it must seem to you like everyone here is antagonizing you, but that's not the case (mostly). You've gotten some really good feedback on why your attitude towards game development & this forum is flawed and how to adjust it for the better, and it's obviously frustrating to the people who try to get through to you that you become argumentative about it. Please make a point to try and listen to their point, otherwise you're not being a good hang, so to speak.

Not trying to beat up on you Michael.

Understand though it's incredibly frustrating for someone giving feedback to be greeted with the equivalent of 'I'm going to ignore everything you said and also you're wrong.'

[michaelplzno]

@ThemsAllTook

Thank you for your critique, I can work with that rather than just "you don't work hard, learn to read" I really thank you for being honest about it and actually looking at my art.

Not to be antagonistic, I'm not sure what the difference between intending a piece to have some narrative to it vs inventing it stream of consciousness, but I suppose the lack of response on twitter is telling of *something* (Though we all know that twitter stinks. IDK maybe you like it.) As J-Snake was saying, there is a bit of a puzzle to solve if I want to make something more meaningful, which I acknowledge as helpful critique and something to work on. (If you are willing to say that I actually do work.)

I was trying to make an interactive 3D version of some of my art, but the process was pretty laborious to convert everything into geometry and create layers. Also, I can probably retro-actively nudge things to be a bit more cohesive if I spend a few days analyzing a piece.

And probably my work is a bit too much if I'm self-analyzing. I like the free form aspect of my work, but it is probably off putting to people who are more into norms and conformity, which compared to me is most humans.

What's surprising is how staunchly people will fight for these norms. Really blows me away that twitter stats prove art is good these days.

@Mark I know this is hard for you, to give such great advice and be met with the idea that it doesn't help me, but you kind of have to meet me somewhere in a neutral space rather than just dictate all kinds of stuff about how I don't deserve it because I'm not trying if you want to help rather than just dump on me.

[ProgramGamer]

The whole "you don't deserve X" thing was in reference to how you seem to believe there should be a direct correlation between the amount of work/time you put into art and how much recognition/attention it gets you. The unfortunate thing is that it doesn't work like that, you have to be perceptive and have something interesting to say to make good art, the time investment is secondary to all that. You're not being beaten down and made to believe that you, personally, are undeserving of anything, people are just trying to explain to you that you're going about this wrong, and if you changed your approach to art, it might become more successful.

[Schoq]

There you go again. Abnormal and nonconforming things can't grab attention in this day and age and that's why you're not noticed? Do you actually believe this?
The genre in which your art can be placed was norm-breaking and nonconforming a century ago maybe.
This is not a value judgement either, I've seen worse abstract paintings bought for public money and hung up on a public wall, but if there's a problem with your art it's hardly that it's just breaking too much ground for people to keep up.

[Alevice]

We deserve art that isn't political

*proceeds to make advance wars but political*

[Pilea]

I don't think it's a matter of "norms and conformity". There are hundreds of galleries all over the world that show strange, novel, and unique work by artists to public acclaim. If you aren't participating in that culture and that discipline, how do you know what the norm is?

[Mark Mayers]

@Mark I know this is hard for you, to give such great advice and be met with the idea that it doesn't help me, but you kind of have to meet me somewhere in a neutral space rather than just dictate all kinds of stuff about how I don't deserve it because I'm not trying if you want to help rather than just dump on me.

Hey man, I'm not trying to dump on you, if anything it's the opposite.

Making creative work is incredibly challenging- you release something into the world which you put a huge amount of work into, which is very personal and close to you, and you leave yourself vulnerable to other people's thoughts and opinions. There are people who are needlessly savage, people who genuinely try to help, and everything in-between. There are some people who never even make that step to release any creative work and only fantasize about it- people who don't even bother to pick up the brush, the pen, the typewriter. I think taking that step requires a huge amount of courage, vulnerability is hard. You have to put yourself into perspective, you're miles ahead of the people who never even bothered to try.

I'm not saying the algorithms and other bullshit is fair, if anything I wholeheartedly agree with you and I think everyone deserves better. What I am saying though is even if everything is garbage, you can always try, you can always do better and improve. I'm not trying to give you any platitudes, all these thoughts are for you to internalize and the decisions are yours. I think whatever is holding you back is within yourself, and it's for you to decide what that is and how to overcome it.

[michaelplzno]

you seem to believe there should be a direct correlation between the amount of work/time you put into art and how much recognition/attention it gets you.

I think the system would be better if it rewarded people who work hard, or at least offered people like that some respect. I've had better stats than mark's 6 big tweets on a lot of tweets, they are Simpsons crap that "anyone can make" I'm not so happy that I'm beating his stats with crap. To some extent, mark works harder on his game and gets less views than my effortless Simpsons memes. He would be right to complain about it, imo.

Abnormal and nonconforming things can't grab attention in this day and age and that's why you're not noticed? Do you actually believe this?

I'm trying to say that if art is about getting the most likes on twitter, then Simpsons crap is the king, which I happen to be pretty good at, but is just empty calories. If I wanted even better numbers I could post political hot takes.

*proceeds to make advance wars but political*

I've said many times that it's sad that Strategery was one of my biggest games. To me it was kind of lowest common denominator stuff that was easy for bloggers to write their own personal political opinions about. But I'm not perfect, nor is all the art I've made equally good. Furthermore, I have a compas for what is good art that goes beyond which stuff everyone talks about. You guys will probably ignore that though because you think I believe that everything I do deserves a million likes as opposed to what I said which is that it deserves more than 3. I wish that the art I think is best actually got the most recognition, but sadly dumb and easy to make political stuff is the king. But again, it's all about what twitter likes, so the political game is probably better than a lot of stuff out there because so many people played it?

What upsets me is that systemically what makes it usually is crap. Again, I'm sure I'll deserve a lot of personal feedback about how I can't read or whatever for saying that the system could be better.

strange, novel, and unique work by artists to public acclaim. If you aren't participating in that culture and that discipline, how do you know what the norm is?

When I talk about norms, I simply mean that my art isn't cool, as I've said many times. It probably is a bit dated and old-fashioned. I want to do art that I like rather than chasing clout and trying to be cool. Don't worry, that doesn't make my art better than yours.

I had a conversation with a TikTok influencer who was going to make videos for my channels. I told him I don't need the content made for me, making goofy videos is the fun part. He told me that you cannot make fun videos and expect them to be successful, that attitude is long dead. Making the stuff that goes out on TikTok is not supposed to be a fun process. I think that is bad (shocking I know), but you'll probably turn it into some personal thing about how I smell bad or something.

if you changed your approach to art, it might become more successful.

I'm not seeing too much of a viable path from this thread, the focus seems to be about how bad my attitude is (and a lot of personal slights that have nothing to do with art.) and that somehow if I were better at hanging out my art would be better received. I've just said that there are systemic flaws and you guys have replied with a litany of personal flaws I have, and to be fair, some of them are legitimate, though I'm not sure how addressing them would make my art more successful.

What I am saying though is even if everything is garbage, you can always try, you can always do better and improve

It's difficult to sift through all this, especially when it seems like based on what people are saying, even what you are saying, is that I don't try or am not deserving or whatever. In the garbage world, how do we make non-garbage? Apparently, I have failed at that, and too few posts here are focused on that problem, or even acknowledge that it's a problem.

Garbage World

[Mark Mayers]

I think the system would be better if it rewarded people who work hard, or at least offered people like that some respect. I've had better stats than mark's 6 big tweets on a lot of tweets, they are Simpsons crap that "anyone can make" I'm not so happy that I'm beating his stats with crap. To some extent, mark works harder on his game and gets less views than my effortless Simpsons memes. He would be right to complain about it, imo.

Yea man- you're exactly proving what I'm trying to say. Who cares if random memes do better on social media than my own work? Who cares what anyone thinks? Who cares about social media and arbitrary 'likes' in general? Here I am still trying anyway, and I feel confident and comfortable with my own success. I would rather be making my craft than doing anything else. However it's important to internalize I can always do better, and that's personally something I will continue to strive towards.

[michaelplzno]

Who cares what anyone thinks?

I mean my goal is to entertain people, I'm not one of these "when I throw a dog a bone I don't want to know how it tastes" kinds of guys. I need to know what people think to get better. Hence if I were getting more feedback, not only would I be able to make some money on my art, but also, more importantly, I would be able to improve more.

I already said this, but I'll rehash it: you can't make some grand theory of the rules of art and make a piece that follows those rules and expect it to stand on its own, sight unseen from the rest of the world.

But saying I smell bad or photoshoping my face on a donkey's ass or whatever doesn't help too much. I still reserve the right to decide which feedback I can work with, and which feedback goes in the complaint file (trash can)

Edit: add flavor image

File that Under E for Enlightenment

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

you seem to believe there should be a direct correlation between the amount of work/time you put into art and how much recognition/attention it gets you.

I think the system would be better if it rewarded people who work hard, or at least offered people like that some respect. I've had better stats than mark's 6 big tweets on a lot of tweets, they are Simpsons crap that "anyone can make" I'm not so happy that I'm beating his stats with crap. To some extent, mark works harder on his game and gets less views than my effortless Simpsons memes. He would be right to complain about it, imo.

can you post some some stats/screeshots from your simpsons tweets just so people can have some factual proofs on your claims?

[Mark Mayers]

I mean my goal is to entertain people, I'm not one of these "when I throw a dog a bone I don't want to know how it tastes" kinds of guys. I need to know what people think to get better. Hence if I were getting more feedback, not only would I be able to make some money on my art, but also, more importantly, I would be able to improve more.

I already said this, but I'll rehash it: you can't make some grand theory of the rules of art and make a piece that follows those rules and expect it to stand on its own, sight unseen from the rest of the world.

But saying I smell bad or photoshoping my face on a donkey's ass or whatever doesn't help too much. I still reserve the right to decide which feedback I can work with, and which feedback goes in the complaint file (trash can)

[michaelplzno]

I tried to delete all my tweets and I'm not sure which ones survived that. The two biggest tweets I had, both of which had more than a million impressions were this image:



And the chase scene from lupin III castle of caligostro.

Actually Guermo del Torro retweeted the Lupin tweet. I did not make Lupin, nor that simpsons meme that went viral. For a long time I would get 100k impressions a month on twitter. I did that mostly through following people back and tweeting random nonsense that didn't have too much merit.

If a screenshot is more meaningful to you, here is a screen grab of my stats for Edit(June) in 2021:



(not that such a screen grab wouldn't be trivial to fake.) Back then I was super into twitter and posting all the time. 777 tweets in a month, geez I should have gotten a life. This is indeed sour grapes, but not because I think that I can't get twitter to notice me. It would be easy to get a million impressions a month if I just gave in and became like that Ben Shapiro butthead.

Bird is the Word

[Schoq]

Abnormal and nonconforming things can't grab attention in this day and age and that's why you're not noticed? Do you actually believe this?

I'm trying to say that if art is about getting the most likes on twitter, then Simpsons crap is the king, which I happen to be pretty good at, but is just empty calories. If I wanted even better numbers I could post political hot takes.

I'm obviously commenting on this paragraph:

And probably my work is a bit too much if I'm self-analyzing. I like the free form aspect of my work, but it is probably off putting to people who are more into norms and conformity, which compared to me is most humans.

where you you speculate that most people like norms and conformity too much to not be put off by your work.

Stop bringing clickbait into this discussion unless you're trying to imply that people who get more likes only keep doing so because their work is equivalent of spamming simpsons memes and ragebait.

You also seem to be the only one trying to count artistic worth in social media likes. I hardly think any game dev or other creator sees those numbers as the bottom line. It's an imperfect gauge , as should be obvious from the fact that the units are the same for ragebait and Simpsons memes as for art, but consistently failing to make that needle move very far from zero does say *something *, like you say.


If you want very concrete and immediately actionable advice from me I'll repeat what some others have said: try a different medium, as an artistic journey if nothing else.

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

For a long time I would get 100k impressions a month on twitter. I did that mostly through following people back and tweeting random nonsense that didn't have too much merit.

100k impression a tweet vs 100k impression a month...

[Mark Mayers]

For a long time I would get 100k impressions a month on twitter. I did that mostly through following people back and tweeting random nonsense that didn't have too much merit.

100k impression a tweet vs 100k impression a month...

Gracefully- although people might be frustrated in this thread, I don't think there is value in bombarding the guy with numbers, even if I did so myself.

My point was if you're measuring likes/shares/whatever as a measure of success (I personally don't), this is something you can improve on through developing your skills and it's not an arbitrary result.

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

except that we're in a situation where we're dealing with an individual who have a consistent history of blaming external factors on why his projects fail to get any attention.

Social media isn't a perfect measurement system, but if you struggle and remain in a consistent range of 0 ~ 5 likes for each artistic work you put there for the world to see.

It's not a social media issue. and the numbers just speak fact.

[Mark Mayers]

except that we're in a situation where we're dealing with an individual who have a consistent history of blaming external factors on why his projects fail to get any attention.

Social media isn't a perfect measurement system, but if you struggle and remain in a consistent range of 0 ~ 5 likes for each artistic work you put there for the world to see.

It's not a social media issue. and the numbers just speak fact.

Definitely not disagreeing with you. I think blaming external factors is toxic. However, my personal advice to Michael is for him to reevaluate his goals and attitude.

[Mark Mayers]

Going to leave you with the salute Michael.