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[J-Snake]

Mostly you have a subjective view that more polish means more quality.

As much as my prediction that "no one" will get your chess theme was subjective.

There are some people who hate math just because it reminds them of their unlikeable teacher. You seem to have the same problem with accepting mature art.

[Mark Mayers]

actual genuine feedback from people

Every feedback you get exists inside the bubble of the relationships involved with the feedback process. In show business they do the whole "warm up the crowd" routine for any serious entertainment venue.

If you kick someone in the nuts and then ask them if they like your art, they will say, "no." If you are friendly, they will say they like it. There is no such thing as art that exists in a vacuum. Every art experience has some kind of context framing it.

I disagree- I'm talking about seeking genuine constructive criticism from other industry people. You should be getting feedback from people who are also artists if you want to improve. If I'm friends with an industry professional and I ask for feedback, I don't want them to just say "I like it" and move on, because that's not how you make something better.

[michaelplzno]

reminds them of their unlikeable teacher.

Sadly, too much reminds me of my unlikeable teachers, but that's tangential to this conversation.

For one to be "mature" one must put away childish things, and my favorite things are childish things. As I say in the thread, my art is not cool, or adult, or anything that a certian crowd loves. I don't spend decades polishing, I don't feel shame at the art I make, I try to have fun with it.

I'm more interested in making my own unique style work rather than fixing the "here's how we make him cool" issue that you guys seem to have read into this thread. I'm a weirdo, I like being a weirdo, that one art teacher is unlikeable because they expected me to change who I am to be succesful. Forget that! Not a chance.

seeking genuine constructive criticism from other industry people.

I'm happy to contact whomever you recommend there. Mostly the other industry people ignore me or won't talk to me. I don't really know how to get "other industry people" to open up. I've noticed that despite the plethora of art in this thread, you've decided to critique my personality rather than the art I've presented, which is fine, but no one is really drilling into the compositional elements of my drawings in any meaningful way other than that they are "not mature" which is vague critique at best in my view.

Also, I disagree back, just because someone is an industry professional doesn't mean they are good at giving critique. At one point Jon Blow was talking to a gamedev that was later in the IGF about how this new game's art style needed more polish and it got a lot of backlash because the game's art style was well articulated, unique, and good, it's just that Blow subjectively didn't like it.

[michaelplzno]

I would never in a million years be able to do a piece like Albert Bierstadt, but also, I don't want to, lol. It's funny how there are so many gamedevs who want to make "beautiful landscapes" who don't know about this stuff though. When you see these in person, they are awe inspiring. Magnificent work, I would even say "mature," but why are you so hung up on telling me to make someone else's style?

[michaelplzno]

The Absurd Game (AI)

I don't know, I don't think this is much better. But realism might tickle your fancy.

[michaelplzno]

The Playful Game (AI)

Here's the same theme with my own personalized AI trained on my drawings.

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

the main issue with your art and the reason people tells you it's childish is because of inconsistencies you find in kids drawings. (i just circled a few)
-inconsistent trace lines width, lines that are supposedly to be straight but not.
-Faded or Uneven Colors  (use another medium or buy some good good quality markers)
-Stepping Off the Edge
-smudge of colors
-inexistent visible composition



 

[michaelplzno]

That's fair and correct. Though I knew that one was going to be a failure, so I was sloppier. In my own estimation that is not my best by far.

Here is one I tried to be super careful about the edges for, the theme in this one eludes even me, but it was consistent on the edges at least?

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

sloppyness aside, what's your artist intention? who is supposed to be your audience?
If there is no purpose, then you art needs to be top tier enough to get people attention.

the issue is that the only feeling i get from seeing your art is that it looks art you do in art therapy.
 

[michaelplzno]

I don't agree with all your red marks on this one. I'm not going to litigate each one, but I have some thoughts about why they are aesthetic rather than slop. I prefer to call it Wabi-Sabi,

a Japanese aesthetic concept that embraces the beauty of imperfection, impermanence, and the incomplete. Rooted in Zen Buddhism, wabi-sabi is all about appreciating the natural cycle of growth and decay, finding beauty in the imperfections and the simple, rustic elegance of things.

I've been told that my art makes the viewer feel a little tingle in their heart, by some family members. Now they have an established relationship with me, and I didn't introduce my art with a kick to the nuts for them, but I do think that the microcosm of the relationship always... always, influences the critique, and thus sometimes without realizing it, people push artists in the wrong direction simply because they aren't friends with them.

Here is attempt number 4:

Pawn in Berserker Mode

Self Critique
I admit that the blue on the king, to the right, is a bit overpowering in its intersection with the red grid like structure underneath. Also, the king overpowers the yellow knight. If I had planned better, I would have broken the right line of the king to allow for that character to have a bit more oomph.

Also, I'm not so sure that the audience will understand the theme as well as version 3. It is a complicated piece that might be a bit off putting to people who want something simple. Simplicity is part of Wabi Sabi, too, so I do value it in some ways.

Self Praise
When I was drawing this at a coffee shop, a woman and her 8-year-old child walked up to me and commented that they loved the drawings and that "those markers look delicious." Now the kid did not attempt to eat my drawing, but I'll take that as a compliment.

My Own Interpretation
This art tells the story of a pawn that has had enough and has gone berserk trying to take over the world. If it can make it to the end of the board, it will  get a promotion, but the little red gravestones are all the pawns that have tried and failed. The king and weird rook to the right are starting to warp because the game itself is becoming absurd.

Will people understand that, as like Picaso, I say that intent is nothing, so what I'm trying to express doesn't matter. The audience has the final say.

Edit:
I've made a playlist of music to inspire this theme. It is an hour long, and this particular drawing took long enough to play the full set. Here is a song from it:

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

Will people understand that, as like Picaso, I say that intent is nothing, so what I'm trying to express doesn't matter. The audience has the final say.

Picasso never said that intent is nothing.
i guess you're talking about the picasso quotes that people like to share?
"What one does is what counts and not what one had the intention of doing."

the problem with quotes is that they are often taken out of their context, and can easily fit with any narrative...
You should read the original source:
https://projects.mcah.columbia.edu/arthumanities/websites/picmon/pdf/art_hum_reading_49.pdf

also:

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

I have some thoughts about why they are aesthetic rather than slop. I prefer to call it Wabi-Sabi,

a Japanese aesthetic concept that embraces the beauty of imperfection, impermanence, and the incomplete. Rooted in Zen Buddhism, wabi-sabi is all about appreciating the natural cycle of growth and decay, finding beauty in the imperfections and the simple, rustic elegance of things.

I don't know why you think your art fits withing the Wabi-Sabi concept beside the self justification for sloppy art...
and also:
"The juxtaposition of wabi-sabi as a single term is of recent, not ancient, vintage, and it does not seem to have occurred in Japan. Nonetheless, the terms originated in Japanese aesthetics: sabi out of poetry and wabi out of tea.

Combined, they appear to fill a gap in the Western vocabulary for talking about art and life – a leaning away from perfection, completion and excess, and a yearning toward leaving something undone, broken or unsaid."

I've been told that my art makes the viewer feel a little tingle in their heart, by some family members.
[...]
When I was drawing this at a coffee shop, a woman and her 8-year-old child walked up to me and commented that they loved the drawings

i don't really understand the purpose of those anecdotal anecdotes as it's not technically facts that validate your art or anything. Family members and friends in general will always give a positive a positive feedback . and in a context of coffee shop, it's a woman with her child, likewise the child was intrigued by your drawings and people are polite.

i feel like there's a bit of contradictions on what you want to achieve, as it seems you clearely mentioned that you want to find success or get more people to like your art, but at the same time you're protecting yourself in that little bubble where you ignore valid criticism.

[michaelplzno]

why you think your art fits withing the Wabi-Sabi concept

I don't know why you don't, the beauty of imperfection and so on. I don't care if it is a Japanese philosophy or not, the words could be made up or from star trek's Klingon language. I like the concept.

Picasso never said that intent is nothing.

I like your version of the quote even more. That and the paragraph you cite fits my narrative quite well.

I seem to be the only one here who is willing to risk falling on my face. And yes, some of my art isn't so great by my own admission, having done thousands of them, some of them are bound to be shit. If you want me to find ten of my drawings that really are trash, I can do so easily. I just don't think they are much worth talking about. As much as I post a lot of art here, I've probably posted less than 1% of my total output.

I'm working on making a tube into a 5-sided spiral rather than just a round tube, so picaso's "round" mug is also relevant to my current issues. I consciously tried to make this piece (game) less abstract mostly for the same reasons I think we all agree on here, that is, abstraction is so detached from the real world that it is impossible to understand for most people.

ignore valid criticism

What, that my art is sloppy? Because you circled some lines you don't like? I'm trying to get to my own version of what "better" means, not yours. I would like my art to be succesful, but I don't want to give up my own personal ... sloppiness... if you must call it that, because I don't want to be the kind of artist who obsesses over perfection at the expense of just relaxing and having fun.

anecdotes as it's not technically facts that validate your art or anything.

But your dictation of my art being "slopy" is a fact that invalidates it?

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

i didn't circle parts "i don't like" i circled parts where there is Stepping Off the Edge, smudges and lines that doesn't make sense.
i only pointed out elements that doesn't appear as intentional mistakes to fit an art style.

I would like my art to be succesful, but I don't want to give up my own personal ... sloppiness... if you must call it that, because I don't want to be the kind of artist who obsesses over perfection at the expense of just relaxing and having fun.

you basically said here the root of your problems. if you just want to relax and have fun, you shouldn't expect more recognition or fame or whatever you pursuit for unless you were naturally talented which you are not.

i'm pretty sure you're aware that there's plenty of capable artists around you and you're just a spit in that ocean.

why do you think you deserve more recognition?

[michaelplzno]

you're just a spit in that ocean.

I may never get recognition. I may just be a little shit. But I take pleasure in offending artists with bad attitudes who gatekeep and think they are more capable than the little shits of the world.

I will continue to shit on the indie elite, and for that matter, anyone who has decided for arbitrary reasons that I (or people like me) don't deserve it.

As with postmodernism, it is warring tribal narratives all the way down: my narrative involves the idea that most of the eliete so called "good" artists simply are not nice, petty, and competitive, and that the people I will invite into my world want to be collaboritve, supportive, and build each other up. If I have to, I will work with the worst, shittiest artists (by your subjective measuring stick), trying to help them make better and better stuff, I will live in a cave, in a bubble, under a rock, but I refuse to acknowledge that the art world has to be a dick measuring contest.

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

There is no elite gatekeeping you, we are not in a courthouse

[michaelplzno]

Most of the people who... anecdotally... like my art seem to have the attitude that the world is run by people who don't listen to them, and the art you call "good" doesn't speak to them.

I'll maintain friendships with people who have more meaningful things to say than "you drew outside the line a few times, so it is lacking in talent" We all know the heart of artistry is following the rules.

[Schoq]

If you've already decided that you have reached your full creative potential and range because your loved ones say nice things about your work that's fine.

It's ridiculous however to believe anyone else owes it to you to be impressed with your output in particular.

If you insist that you're already as good as you're ever gonna get, you also need to accept if maybe the output of this fully realized potential just lacks too many qualities to have much of an impact.

My tailored suggestion after all the discussions like this one you've started: if you have a small circle of friends and family that are genuinely looking forward to seeing what you're up to creatively, that can (should) be fulfilling enough and I think you should just be comfortable with that and take whatever else as a bonus.

If you're after wider recognition you must be aware that the competition (by sheer volume) is overwhelming even for people with a much much greater expressive range than yours.

[michaelplzno]

In this very thread I said I could do better. I'm not sure that nitpicking about drawing outside the lines is particularly helpful to that goal. All these people with such range and talent who also feel they didn't get as far as they want... Am I supposed to imitate them?

[Schoq]

Supposed to to what end?
No, just be aware that even if you had a hundred times the talent your work would be drowning in a sea of other people's comparable or more interesting output. You have no reason to be surprised if nobody seems to be taking note of you or your work in particular.