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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperArt (Moderator: JWK5)Art is Cool?!
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2024, 07:53:18 PM »

To drown in a sea of creativity, that sounds nice. I can see from the stuff posted on tig, twitter, and reddit that this sea of creativity is real  Blink  Blink oh wait, no I don't see too much stuff out there that really shakes me as one hundred times more talented and impactful than what I make. I wish I did: humble me with the greatness of everyone's art. You guys in these threads don't post too much of the stuff, but I'd love to see some of the great stuff out there that is hundreds of times better than mine!
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J-Snake
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« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2024, 08:30:29 PM »

but no one is really drilling into the compositional elements of my drawings in any meaningful way other than that they are "not mature" which is vague critique at best in my view.
I’ve actually addressed this. Any artistic twist should enhance the point you’re trying to make, not obscure it, and I even provided a concrete example to illustrate that. I also stressed that randomness and puzzles don’t complement each other. These are important principles worth taking seriously, and by applying them, you can elevate your work within the art style you already enjoy.

japanese aesthetic concept that embraces the beauty of imperfection, impermanence, and the incomplete.
There can be beauty in imperfection, but not all imperfections are inherently beautiful. I encourage you to reflect on what imperfection truly means and how it aligns with your artistic intent.
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Schoq
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« Reply #42 on: November 22, 2024, 08:44:28 PM »

I'm arguing from statistics: you can't possibly be oblivious to the volume of art posted by dedicated artists on mass social media and dedicated art sites every day. You would literally have to believe yourself to be a generational creative talent to think there's a reason you should *necessarily* become widely recognized above all of these people.
Ignore any part of my previous posts that imply a value judgement of your art if that makes the argument clearer to you.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2024, 08:58:57 PM by Schoq » Logged

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Mark Mayers
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« Reply #43 on: November 23, 2024, 12:49:06 AM »

I've noticed that despite the plethora of art in this thread, you've decided to critique my personality rather than the art I've presented, which is fine, but no one is really drilling into the compositional elements of my drawings in any meaningful way...

b∀ kkusa, J-Snake, and others in multiple threads have tried to give you constructive criticism about your art, and you consistently rejected it- I was in the progress of writing something up to help you out but tbh I don't feel motivated to continue.

I'm arguing from statistics: you can't possibly be oblivious to the volume of art posted by dedicated artists on mass social media and dedicated art sites every day. You would literally have to believe yourself to be a generational creative talent to think there's a reason you should *necessarily* become widely recognized above all of these people.
Ignore any part of my previous posts that imply a value judgement of your art if that makes the argument clearer to you.

This really.

I've done thousands of drawings, and maybe you could say I haven't improved over the 6 years I've worked on them.

Dude if you've drawn thousands of drawings and haven't improved in 6 years you should reevaluate your creative process, or be complacent with your progress. You could be the worst artist in the world, but if you show up to create and take personal enjoyment in your craft, that's 100% amazing. If that's what you want, truly, don't let anyone else tell you different.

However from reading through some of your other threads it feels like you're projecting the world owes you something- like the effort you put in *deserves* something and you're entitled to it- that you're some undiscovered talent which the cool kids or the algorithm haven't picked up.

The truth is the world won't give you shit. You have to fight for it. Nothing is ever handed to you. Also sometimes even if you try your hardest you still won't succeed! However your life is still in your control. You can always get up and try again. I think wanting something greater is a very human thing to feel, but still, regardless of the hand you're dealt you can always try. I just don't vibe with the attitude of thinking that people owe you something.

You guys in these threads don't post too much of the stuff, but I'd love to see some of the great stuff out there

My art has been in museums. I still doubt myself occasionally and I always see room for self improvement.
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #44 on: November 23, 2024, 01:45:12 AM »

Quote
tbh I don't feel motivated to continue.
I'm glad you felt you could be honest there. Just because "your art has been in museums" doesn't mean that you know how to help artists who have yet to achieve that honor, nor that their dream is to make art just like you. Or even that their dream is to get their art into a museum. My game was in the IGF once, whooopie, it doesn't really matter much to me.

Quote
oblivious to the volume of art posted by dedicated artists on mass social media and dedicated art sites every day.
When it comes to twitter, I could get into statistics. I once many years ago ran a robot through twitter's graph to see who is connected to prominent indies. I hadn't realized that Brandon Boyer, who has since been called out by the MeToo movement, was so influential in the indie circles till I had run this statistical analysis.

Most of the stuff on twitter is rhetorical political posts. Most of the art that is popular is fan-art of big series. Sometimes you get a web comic that is a bigger deal. Very rarely is there art that is somewhat abstract, or in a style similar to mine.

I know it's easy to say "There are so many people how can I help them all." rather than "There are so many people, how can I help some of them?" As discussed in my power thread, the world doesn't owe me, or anyone else shit, not free healthcare, not civil rights, not abortion rights... yada yada.

However, based on this thread, even if Derek Yu himself posted my art, it probably would get ripped to shreds because it's not what everyone expects. So in the end, I'm glad to at least have come to that understanding. You guys really don't see through the inherent authoritarian biases in the system. Which is enlightening to me.

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Dude if you've drawn thousands of drawings and haven't improved in 6 years you should reevaluate your creative process
You aren't a great listener: I think I've improved a great deal. You may disagree with that. I don't understand why no one reads my posts. It's not that I don't want to improve, or think that my art is perfect, it's that if I'm going to improve it is going to be towards my own style that I'm proud of rather than someone else's way of doing art. If I sit there and make a piece where I spend the whole time worrying about fitting inside the lines, it won't be my style, or representative of my actual feelings.

You guys have made it perfectly clear that my art is too slopy for your taste, but if your prescreption is for me to manicure my art and really get all the lines super clean in order to improve, I disagree there. You seem to say that cleaning up the lines is the heart of great art. My wife thought you guys must be joking, but I'm not so sure.

Quote
Any artistic twist should enhance the point you’re trying to make, not obscure it, and I even provided a concrete example to illustrate that.
Yes JSnake, of all the feedback, yours was the most helpful, though I'm not so sure my first chess art piece would actually be improved if I removed the two tone blues. Maybe it would be, I'm not sure at this point so I am trying to analyze in my own way what you are saying because it has validity to me and makes sense, at least.

To me, I'll admit that there is a conflict between clarity and fun, that being random does obfuscate the meaning of a piece etc. But in my view Art itself is the conflict between emotion and logic. I suppose if my art were truly better, it would synthesize this conflict into harmony better. And I probably lean too heavy on emotion in my pieces, in that I just do whatever I feel like sometimes.

Quote
You have to fight for it.
And I assume that fighting for my art means that I say "thank you sir may I have another" when people tell me I "have no talent?"
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Mark Mayers
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« Reply #45 on: November 23, 2024, 02:09:41 AM »

You aren't a great listener: I think I've improved a great deal.

I've done thousands of drawings, and maybe you could say I haven't improved over the 6 years I've worked on them.

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Mark Mayers
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« Reply #46 on: November 23, 2024, 02:22:38 AM »

However, based on this thread, even if Derek Yu himself posted my art, it probably would get ripped to shreds because it's not what everyone expects. So in the end, I'm glad to at least have come to that understanding. You guys really don't see through the inherent authoritarian biases in the system. Which is enlightening to me.

I seem to recall Derek used to spend a lot of time running a pretty popular website dedicated to unreciprocally promoting other indie devs. Can't remember what it was called
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #47 on: November 23, 2024, 02:32:03 AM »

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I've done thousands of drawings, and maybe you could say I haven't improved over the 6 years I've worked on them... but I disagree.
Emphasis for clarity.

Quote
I seem to recall Derek used to spend a lot of time running a pretty popular website dedicated to unreciprocally promoting other indie devs. Can't remember what it was called
I tried to post on the main page, I still want to, I'm not allowed to. I'm happy to be involved with that process of lifting people up.

I'm surprised you support Derek's goals of helping indie devs that the world doesn't owe shit to? Or did the ones that Derek helped fight for it properly, so they do deserve it?
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Mark Mayers
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« Reply #48 on: November 23, 2024, 02:50:08 AM »

Quote
I've done thousands of drawings, and maybe you could say I haven't improved over the 6 years I've worked on them... but I disagree.
Emphasis for clarity.

You literally changed the quote and also quoted me out of context in the previous post.

I'm surprised you support Derek's goals of helping indie devs that the world doesn't owe shit to? Or did the ones that Derek helped fight for it properly, so they do deserve it?

I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding my point.

Also I'm not sure why you're fixated on random people in the games industry, who cares what they think?
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Mark Mayers
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« Reply #49 on: November 23, 2024, 02:57:47 AM »

Honestly I just want to make video games and help other people make video games.

I'm not sure what made you so bitter to think there's some global "inherent authoritarian biases in the system" which are preventing you from your goals.

The only one preventing you from your goals is yourself, however you define those goals.

--

*Edit- granted there are totally biases in the global system, like the world sucks.

However, if your grievances are "random game industry person didn't retweet me so now I'm vindictive against them forever and there is systemic authoritarian bias against me" there are more important things in life to be concerned about.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2024, 03:31:12 AM by Mark Mayers » Logged

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michaelplzno
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« Reply #50 on: November 23, 2024, 03:21:18 AM »

Quote
I'm not sure what made you so bitter to think there's some global "inherent authoritarian biases in the system" which is preventing you from your goals.

I don't know, probably the holocaust.  Well, hello there!

More seriously, thank you for trying to help, and for engaging with me. I probably was more rude than I should have been. I truly am grateful for every comment here, even though I disagree with some of them. It's a lot to think about. I shouldn't treat the thread like a courthouse, you are right about that.

I have a lot of anger issues with the artistic world. Edit: (I don't really know what to do with that anger, or where to focus it.) I shouldn't take it out on the people who are nice enough to actually give me the time of day.  Coffee
« Last Edit: November 23, 2024, 03:26:20 AM by michaelplzno » Logged

Mark Mayers
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« Reply #51 on: November 23, 2024, 03:29:52 AM »

More seriously, thank you for trying to help, and for engaging with me. I probably was more rude than I should have been. I truly am grateful for every comment here, even though I disagree with some of them. It's a lot to think about. I shouldn't treat the thread like a courthouse, you are right about that.

Yea man we're all here as part of the same community. Indie game dev is a struggle and it's important to support each other.
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #52 on: November 23, 2024, 03:37:17 AM »

I'm a chesty man who needs a lot of support (lol), and sometimes I do think I would improve faster (though I AM improving) if I just fundamentally changed my process to be less fun. You can say that fun art is easy to make, but particularly with code, I've had a challenging time making it fun. I used to bite my fingers as I typed code out of anger and frustration and trying to get everything perfect. I may seem like I just wander through a field picking flowers and expect my art to be genius work, but really making fun stuff is difficult ... for me at least. Working without the baked in pain is tough. Maybe everyone has a different attitude about that.
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Mark Mayers
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« Reply #53 on: November 23, 2024, 03:39:47 AM »

I'm a chesty man who needs a lot of support (lol), and sometimes I do think I would improve faster (though I AM improving) if I just fundamentally changed my process to be less fun. You can say that fun art is easy to make, but particularly with code, I've had a challenging time making it fun. I used to bite my fingers as I typed code out of anger and frustration and trying to get everything perfect. I may seem like I just wander through a field picking flowers and expect my art to be genius work, but really making fun stuff is difficult ... for me at least. Working without the baked in pain is tough. Maybe everyone has a different attitude about that.

Every creative work is a mountain you get to climb, but the fun part is you get to choose how big the mountain is.
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #54 on: November 23, 2024, 03:52:11 AM »

Just made me think of Fujiko which I'm told means "Lovely Mountains"


I'm not sure if this is NSFW but it's my dad's all-time favorite.
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b∀ kkusa
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« Reply #55 on: November 23, 2024, 04:17:23 AM »

Just made me think of Fujiko which I'm told means "Lovely Mountains"

Huh? Fujiko , Fuji 藤 -> wysteria      Ko 子 -> child
 or if referred to the mountain it would mean son of the mount fuji. but in now way fujiko would mean "lovely mountain"
as it would need a -san as a suffix or the word "lovely" which is absent in the word fujiko.
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Schoq
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« Reply #56 on: November 23, 2024, 04:26:19 AM »

If you have never had to struggle to find material stability, and never had to balance what time and resources you spend on feeding yourself and people you're responsible for with what you spend on developing your craft, you already skipped 99.99% of any ~inherent authoritarian bias in the system~
Quit whining seriously
« Last Edit: November 23, 2024, 09:04:47 AM by Schoq » Logged

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michaelplzno
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« Reply #57 on: November 23, 2024, 11:15:01 AM »

Thank you for the assistance; it has provided me with some clarity on the situation, although I regret that it required a series of unpleasant complaints to achieve this understanding.

I'm puzzled as to why the person who provided me with the translation of Fujiko was misleading. Similarly, I was misinformed that the phrase "You have to break a lot of eggs if you want to make an omelet" originated from Stalin, which is not true. I also suspect one of my uncles deliberately twisted facts just to playfully provoke me.

Fun vs Clarity. Sigh. Thanks again.
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J-Snake
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« Reply #58 on: November 23, 2024, 03:15:41 PM »

I'm not so sure my first chess art piece would actually be improved if I removed the two tone blues. Maybe it would be, I'm not sure at this point so I am trying to analyze in my own way what you are saying because it has validity to me and makes sense, at least.
I didn't say it was enough. It was an example for just one obfuscation going on there. I want you to see the more general advice. There are helpful principles you can use to create a guideline for yourself.

To elaborate: every message is composed of certain ingredients. These ingredients are the visual elements and the points you want to communicate about them. For the message to be understood, the ingredients must be clear—just as a parser can only interpret input when the tokens are well-defined. Just like a parser can't make sense of every input, the observer cannot make sense of every picture.

For example, let’s break down your chess theme into some potential ingredients:

  • Representation of the chess pieces
  • Representation of the chessboard
  • The hallucination-inducing effect of the chessboard
...

In a simple case, all these points might be orthogonal (independent of each other). However, this is not always true in practice. As the creator, you have a puzzle to solve: ensuring all points are communicated clearly while accounting for their interdependence.

Keep in mind, you have full context for your work, but the observer does not. For instance, if you want to emphasize the hallucination-inducing effect by alternating colors within a chessboard cell, it might conflict with point 2, the clarity of the chessboard itself. To resolve this, you could adjust point 2 or modify other elements to counteract the conflict. This is where the process becomes interesting and creativity is challenged. The guideline, however, helps you navigate these choices.

Once all ingredients are clearly communicated, only then can you use them to construct additional puzzles or complexities for the observer. Notice how the puzzles for the observer are fundamentally different from the creative challenges you face as the artist. In your chess example, the observer’s confusion stemmed from treating the ingredients as if they were entirely orthogonal.

In short:
  • Make a list of the ingredients you need and want to convey.
  • Ensure all ingredients are communicated clearly for the way/s you want to use them.
  • Once the ingredients are prepared for their purpose, mix them properly to produce the final "meal."
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #59 on: November 24, 2024, 03:26:11 AM »

I think what you guys are referring to is:

Virtuosity in art refers to a high level of skill, technical prowess, and mastery that an artist demonstrates in their work. It often involves intricate details, complex compositions, and the ability to evoke strong emotions through artistic expression. Virtuosity is not just about technical excellence but also about how creatively and effectively an artist can convey their vision.

I would say that the example my studio did of this game:




Demonstrates Virtuosity. Sadly no one wanted to play it, lol. Maybe it wasn't virtuous enough?

The other side of that coin is:
Raw or Primitive when referring to the art style that values simplicity, imperfection, and emotional impact over technical proficiency. In the context of music or visual arts, other fitting terms include "DIY" (Do It Yourself), "lo-fi" (low fidelity), and "naïve art". These styles and movements emphasize authenticity, personal expression, and often a rebellious spirit against mainstream standards.

For example, punk and grunge music. (Or perhaps the art I've posted in this thread. Maybe it wasn't punk enough?) You guys seem to be arguing that the later cannot be commercially succesful, or that more virtuous artists are more deserving.

I'm not saying I want to be this guy, but there is room for art of this type:




And surely my art isn't that bad/amazing.

@J-Snake I'll play around with being a bit more formal in my process. For example, I noticed that the grid of longitude and lattitude lines on a globe can line up with the chess board as part of the "grand puzzle"
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